Gradual withdrawal - hysterical baby can’t be soothed??

[TiredMama89]

With gradual withdrawal sleep training, I’m struggling to soothe baby (6.5 months) in any way whilst he’s in his crib awake. He flails his arms and legs around and is hysterical. No amount of shhing, patting, soothing words, hand on chest etc soothes or calms him in anyway. Picking him up doesn’t calm him either. This then feels like I’m leaving him to CIO but watching him cry instead, which is awful.

I haven’t tried leaving the room but I really hate the idea of leaving him alone to cry 😢 I don’t want him to feel abandoned.

Just as a bit of background about his temperament- he fits the “high needs baby” criteria. I’m sleep training as I can’t do hourly cosleeping wakings anymore as it’s causing my insomnia and PND to be even worse.

Is there anything else I can try?

You're not being gradual enough in your approach. How was babu previously getting to sleep?

@FATEdestiny Cosleeping and either feeding to sleep lying down or bouncing on birth ball. He’s always been really hard to transfer though so he always wakes when we put him down after bouncing on the ball - so often still need to feed to sleep after.

I’ve been trying the Pantley pull off for the last month and I try to scoot away once he’s asleep to get him used to sleeping solo but it’s not helped - he wakes after 10 mins and starts to scoot over to me so feel like I might need to do something a bit more radical as I can’t go on like I’m going 😩 I’m only getting about 3 hours of broken sleep per night and my mental health is suffering.

I’ve got four kids. IME when you’ve tried everything there is something else going on like undiagnosed silent reflux.

Oh gosh my youngest was like this and it was so hard. I ended up doing what I could just to maximise sleep while cosleeping because he would not sleep alone. Could we help you find ways to increase your sleep while still cosleeping? What's happening at the moment?

First you need to break the sleep association of feeding to sleep.

I would feed until sleep or wake/rouse him and then hold him whilst he falls asleep. Only after that can you start cuddling until drowsy and put down awake.

I really feel for you btw. It’s incredibly hard. It sounds like you are doing a really good job and I promise it gets better.

I agree with looking into silent reflux with what you've described.

@zurala He wakes every hour to 1.5 hours and feeds or suckles himself back to sleep. Sometimes I can resettle him by holding his hands but most of the time, he roots for nipple. He’s never slept longer than 2 hours at a time since birth but we rarely get one of those these days.

If that wasn’t bad enough, I also have insomnia so I end up lying awake for ages trying to get to sleep and after 30 mins or so I then lie there thinking “well he’s going to wake in 30 mins, there’s now no point!” And I get really frustrated with myself and with the situation - which also doesn’t help with sleep. I’ve tried mindfulness and counting backwards from 100 but doesn’t always work. I also have restless leg syndrome so I get really uncomfortable but every move I make wakes him up. Which is why I think I need to be in a different room to him so I can at least toss and turn all I like without disturbing him.

He is absolutely dependent on suckling to sleep on you so that is the first thing to deal with.

Will he take a dummy? Have you looked into silent reflux?

@RandomMess I agree he’s dependent on it, which is why I need to do something different!

What are the symptoms to look out for silent reflux? He’s not sick that much. He does seem to vomit in his mouth and swallow a fair bit and gets hiccups. Sometimes in the night too. But other days he seems completely fine. Does this sound like silent reflux?

He won’t accept a dummy unfortunately 😞

That is silent reflux.

It's awful and makes them very uncomfortable. Mine is a year and symptoms have got much better. Everything I read says you can't sleep trian a silent reflux baby, I'm sorry.

I recommend Fox & The Moon sleep consultant on Instagram who may have some suggestions.

Oh OP I feel for you. Sleep deprivation is the worst!

My first born sounds very similar. I broke the 'feed to sleep' habit by watching very carefully for sleep cues during the day - the first yawn and I would be on the case and ready to get him to sleep!

Basically I walked. I walked and walked and walked. My baby loved to sleep in the car seat (attached to the buggy, never in the carrycot!) so I as soon as that first yawn came back we went out for a walk. If I stopped walking he woke up so I walked A LOT until
He wore up naturally, sometimes 2 hours. it took a few weeks to break the feed to sleep habit but we did get there eventually. That also help link sleep cycles.

Sounds like your baby can't link sleep cycles. Try working on that. When he is asleep and it's nearing the end of a sleep cycle (usually 30-40 mins) be close to get him back to sleep. (The only way I managed that was with the walking in the buggy!). The other thing that worked was driving in the car.

Every baby is different, that's just what worked for me.

Does he prefer being held upright? Does he like pressure on his tummy? If he possets is it really curdled even just after he's been fed?

Mine screamed a lot, was miserable and only slept 6 hours out of 24 from 7 weeks and tbh I think she passed out from exhaustion.

He's 6.5 months old, there's good reason why sleep training isn't recommended until babies are at least a year old. Please respond to your baby's needs and cuddle and feed as required. BASIS have great information on what is normal for babies sleep wise.

We don’t feed to sleep in the day. In the day he’ll only sleep in motion in the sling. This way we’re able to help him link sleep cycles when he wakes at 30 mins. But he doesn’t seem to be able to do it alone at night yet.

@RandomMess Yeah he does prefer to be held upright. He doesn’t mind his playmat though. And yes his vomit can be curdled right after a feed - what does this mean? Other times it’s very loose like it’s almost breastmilk.

Sounds very much like silent reflux.

If he needs the sling to sleep during the day then he will need at that night too.

How do you feel about trying to fix feed and try him on a bottle so your DH/DP can do the nights or part of the nights too?

A baby doesn't need a feed every 1.5 hours during the night what your baby needs is his sleep association prop and comforting which appears to be your boob and a cuddle.

If you can't sleep like that (I couldn't) then you need to change his sleep associations for both day and night so they are consistent.

During the day you are using motion in the sling and at night your boobs. From his point of view he has no clue how to settle to sleep without either of those hence the distress.

@RandomMess How do you change sleep associations without just replacing them for different ones? That’s why I was wanting to try sleep training to teach independent sleep?

Slowly and with support!

There is a lot going on at the moment though.

We always used a cuddly comfort toy and introduced that for all cuddles, feeds and overnight.

I never fed to sleep from birth so I can't help with that tbh.

From what you've said, before sleep training, I would get to the GP and start him on omeprazole or at the very least, gaviscon. (And I sleep trained both of my eldest so I'm in no way against it but there's no point trying if they're I'll or uncomfortable)