toddler enjoys hurting others

[Mumm1263728]

Hi,

I’m looking for some advice. My daughter has just turned 4 and she has a friend a few weeks older than her. Since the pair have been 2 me and her mum have always taken the girls out together for days out. Over the past year I’ve noticed really bad behaviour from my daughters friend and it’s progressively getting worse.

It started of just snatching and not sharing with my daughter which was fine. I feel like this is normal behaviour for toddlers even though my daughter is a good sharer surprisingly. Then she would kick off over not being given something first, for example a drink even if they are identical she will always want the one my daughter has been given. I feel bad for my daughter when she’s being good and it’s as if she gets punished for her friend’s bad behaviour because we have to always let her friend have the first go or pick of everything just to prevent a tantrum or to stop a tantrum.

Recently I’ve noticed her friend enjoying hurting other children. An example my daughters party she sat on a child on the bouncy castle pinching him and wouldn’t get off him while he was crying. Also a couple days ago we was all in the car while mine and her mums backs where turned she would try to kick my daughter I noticed and told her not to but she still continued to try and kick her.

She also runs off and throws herself on the floor when she doesn’t get her own way. I feel like from my pov her mum lets her get away with this behaviour by rewarding her with something in hopes she’ll stop but the behaviour just carry’s on. I feel like she needs to be more firm and instead of bribing her and rewarding bad behaviour she either needs to give her a time out or take her home.

She also does things knowing it’s bad like drawing on my walls or hiding things and telling her mum later that she’s hid them and there gone forever at someone else’s house.

Its became unenjoyable going out with her as bad as that sounds and I feel bad for my daughter when she gets hurt or even just having to let her friend get her own way when my daughter is being well behaved.

Because we’ve done a lot since they’ve been 2 I feel like it’s a shame to stop spending time with them as they do get along but her friend will act like this continuously through out the day.

Do you have any suggestions why a child would act this way or whether it’s a disorder? I want to have a conversation with my friend about her daughter but don’t think it’s my place

It’s not a disorder it’s just lazy indulgent parenting. She is doing her child no favours.

I’m afraid I would totally disengage. It’s a shame to end a friendship but my adult children have subsequently told me how much they hated being forced to play with kids like this just because I was friends with their mums. It won’t change, it’ll just get more miserable and your child could get hurt.

@UWhatNow thank you for your reply. Would you consider it forcing my daughter to spend time with her friend if my daughter wants to and gets excited to see her?

they both get along but I just don’t understand the wanting to hurt other children and you can tell she enjoys it. She does it so sneakily too because she knows it’s wrong

She has no consequences for behaving badly, on the contrary, when her mum notices she gets rewarded if I understand you correctly. If you want to continue meeting them then it might be worth having a chat with her mum though I understand that it would be uncomfortable. Otherwise I'd call out the child every time on their behaviour. Even if the friend's DD doesn't listen at least it will show to.your DD that this behaviour isn't acceptable.

I think even if your daughter is enjoying these meetings it still isn't great as it teaches her that 1. It's ok for others to treat her badly and 2. It's ok to behave badly and hurt others.

@PurpleIsTheNewPink yes lately I have started telling her daughter if she does something bad that it’s wrong but afterwards it makes me anxious incase I’ve overstepped a boundary with her mum because I don’t know how I would feel if it where the other way around but my daughter doesn’t act like this.

there was an situation where the 4 of us went out when her friend turned 4 so I bought a birthday cake and a pack of candles. It was a pack of 6 candles and before we left my daughter had asked if she could have one and I said we’ll keep 2 and put 4 on her cake as she turns 4. Her friend had seen the spare 2 candles and while she had the cake in front of her and candles where burning all she could think about was those 2 candles she didn’t have and kept asking her mum for them and her mums response was “we’ll sort it after” after she blew them out she was still asking for them so I said she can’t have them and while I tried to explain why she couldn’t she just screamed in my face and then tried getting them out my bag from under the table so I said NO. It really makes me uncomfortable being firm with someone else’s child and I know the easy option would have been to give her the other 2 candles as my daughter wouldn’t of even cared but she needs to learn. Her mums response was “you won’t get ice cream” and “we’ll go to the shops later and you can pick your own candles for your party” when after acting like that she doesn’t deserve either. So I said we have bought you that cake and candles it’s not very grateful to be acting this way, if you aren’t happy with it I can take it back to the shop and you won’t have no candles or cake.

Me, my daughter or my parenting are not perfect but I just don’t understand how she’s like this

It’s because her mother is a wet wipe and sounds afraid to say no or upset her. The child has no boundaries and is psychologically distressed because no one is ‘in charge’. She’s been emotionally abandoned. Children need boundaries even if they don’t like it. It’s about psychological safety and this child doesn’t have it. That is why her reactions are dramatic - she has no means to emotionally regulate beyond the emotions of a four year old.

Eg. Most four year olds would have an adult saying in a chirpy voice ‘come on now, no need for that let’s have some nice cake’ (calming and distracting while moving the child away) but this child has a dick for a mother (sorry I get so cross about parents who abdicate responsibility like this).

I don’t think you should stop visiting with them if you don’t want to, and can handle it, but every time there will be incidents like this and eventually it will annoy you so much, and your dd will grow to be disturbed by it. The only other option is to have a serious word with her (show her this thread) but that never goes well - people always shoot the messenger.

@UWhatNow Her mum is really nice and a great mum know one is perfect. She does a lot for her daughter especially being a single mum but I feel like I just want to help her or give her advice but I just don’t think it’ll be appreciated. I’m not here to talk badly of her I just need to vent and get another perspective from others

I know she’s aware of her behaviour, she’s mentioned she thought her daughter could have autism or ADHD because of how she acts. I don’t know if she ignores the “mild” things because she’s fed up and has to pick her battles or that she feels because me and my daughter are there she has to prevent a melt down so it doesn’t ruin the day. She also lives with her parents still so could it possibly be a mix of different parenting roles? Her daughter doesn’t have set days to see her dad either she sees him weekly but nothings organised and she doesn’t stay overnight. He’s due to have another baby with someone else soon and if she’s hurting other children and doing malicious things on purpose I wouldn’t want her around my newborn. This makes me worried and sad for her because it’s not her fault how she acts

Of course the child is badly behaved, she is looking for the boundaries in order to feel safe as @UWhatNow said.

It's none of your business how your friend is raising her child, all you can do is walk away. Cut down on the amount of times you see her. Protect your own child. Find more suitable playmates.

That does not sound like ASD behaviours from a little girl. It sounds like not enough “No.” Also no point wasting your breath on explanations with little kids. You could have easily fixed the candle situation by saying, “No, they’re my candles. They’re not for you.” and putting them straight into your bag and moving the bag away from the kid while you lit the candles on her cake.

It's your job as a parent to protect your own child. Why are you letting her spend her free time with a child who treats her badly?

As for the child, sounds like she has a lot going on in her life and poor boundary setting by the mother. You can't help here.

Your job is to look after your own child's best interests.

@Fraaahnces with my daughter I like to explain to her why she can’t have something or why she can’t do something instead of just saying no. It helps avoid a meltdown and calms her down and helps her learn and understand.

the candles where put into my bag as soon as I put them on to her cake as I know what her friend is like but she was quick and noticed them and tried crawling under the table to get them out my bag this is where I’ve said no and moved my bag

@Merlott i suppose you’re right it’s none of my business but it’s just a sad situation as a few minor changes could probably help with her daughters behaviour. I would just feel bad if he mum is struggling with her behaviour and I’ve just turned my back

This is mad. This girl is drawing on your walls, attacking other children including kicking your DD, being horrible to her, having awful tantrums. You find the get togethers unenjoyable and you say you feel bad for you DD being on the receiving end of this behaviour. So put your DD first and stop the meet ups already. This is not your problem to fix, the why is completely irrelevant to you. Your job is to protect your daughter and teach her that you don’t have to put up with being treated like crap.

And stop saying toddler, 4YOs are not toddlers.

It’s minimising the behaviour because things like temper tantrums, scribbling everywhere if they find a crayon and hitting are normal phases in toddlers (although that still doesn’t give parents a free pass!) but absolutely are not something a child of 4 should be doing!

@FlounderingFruitcake i class children ages 1-3 years as toddlers and I’m referring to past and present things that have happened from age 2 . That she has done as a toddler and still does now.

My daughter has only just turned 4 a month ago so I’m referring to her as a toddler rather than a child / preschooler this is why.

Age 4 they are still processing their emotions and learning so I personally wouldn’t expect them to act like a 6 year old at this age.

I wouldn’t consider this normal toddler behaviour either as my daughter has never acted this way.

Not sure anyone can tell you why this child is behaving this way or if there is a disorder.

From the way you described things I think you'll get a lot of replies blaming your friend of bad parenting and the child of just being naughty.

If this was my friend I would've already talked to her about it (possibly as and when something happens). She might be really struggling and could appreciate a supportive mum friend.

Sorry probably misunderstood what you meant by the use of toddlers, which I think is officially a child aged 12-36 months, and is definitely not a 4YO. After all, if your DD is an early Sept birthday then children mere days older are at school! And I do think a lot of the behaviour you’ve described is within the realm of normal for young toddlers of 18 months to 2 years ish. Doesn’t mean they all do it but lots do. However, they usually learn pretty quickly it’s not ok, because their bad behaviour is consistently corrected which clearly hasn’t happened here, so if you’re looking for a root cause then that’s probably it. Regardless it’s not your problem to fix and your own DD needs to be your priority. Stop the meet ups.

This. Ds was a little monster aged 15-30 months. Once he had good language these behaviours melted away.

Ime the dd has more than average adults parenting her and it is reflecting in her behaviour.. My dsd was very similar. Not an awful dc but quickly learned to play one off again another to effectively live a consequence free life! And get whatever she wanted!
My own dd's could never understand why they had rules and dsd didn't. Keep telling her off imo. Someone has to!

@puddingandsun Thank you and thank you for being respectful towards my friend. I agree she’s a friend and I do want to speak about it but I don’t know how without sounding judgemental. We do talk about being exhausted on our way home but when she words things it’s as if she thinks my daughter is equally as bad and never brings it up or apologises. Which I don’t think I’m owned an apology but if my daughter repeatedly tried to pull her daughters hair or kick her I would feel embarrassed and once we where home and settled send a text to apologise and say hope she’s ok.

I made this thread in hopes to get another opinion as I feel like I’m being judgey or to see if anyone has been in a similar situation whether you’ve been me or have been the mum of a child whose acted like this and what did you do. I’m also generally interested in why a child would act this way just to educate myself especially if it could be signs of a disorder.

As a mum I know how lonely it can be especially if you’re a single parent or if you have no friends with kids of a similar age or any kids at all. I think it’s really important to support your friends and I can only imagine how difficult it would be if my daughter acted this way because let’s be honest being a mum is one of the hardest job you can do in my opinion mentally and physically.

Its not got to a point where I’m concerned for my daughter or her safety I just feel bad on her. The girls are well supervised when we’re together and my daughter is aware that it’s bad behaviour and doesn’t repeat what her friend does. She either goes off and does her own thing while her friend is having a moment if it’s not effecting her or she makes her friend aware that’s she’s being silly. We have one more thing planned together end of the month so depending how this goes I will evaluate whether we have a talk or just stop contact between the girls.

I've a similar situation. My friends daughter has always been very challenging. She's now 5 and honestly hasn't changed since she was 2 in terms of behaviour or tantrums - in fact she is worse as she's getting older. This child upsets mine too much (and other children wherever we go) and I dread meet-ups. My friend always makes excuses 'oh x is so tired' etc. I've had to limit the amount I see my friend and distant myself a little. Its very difficult, I sympathise.

@LdnReno yes it’s a tough one, I keep thinking maybe as she gets older she’ll grow out of it or learn to understand especially as she’s just started school but she’s getting worse and now that she’s started enjoying and wanting to hurt others I don’t want to put my daughter in a situation where her or her friends could get hurt.

it’s a shame because we do go nice places together and the girls enjoy it every time despite her friends behaviour. They both look forward to seeing each other and can m talk and play nice it’s just her friend acts like this throughout the day and it’s tiring and makes me resent her child once we’re home.

Last Christmas time we took them to a fair and ordered them both a mixed red & blue slush. My daughter was next to me so I passed her one first and then her friend started to kick off because she wanted my daughters slush. They where exactly the same however one was made with red on the top and other with red on the bottom. I wasn’t going to take my daughters drinks off her to stop the kick off because she’s being well behaved and her friend needs to appreciate what she’s given and learn it’s not ok to act that way. Her friend through herself on the floor and we just ignored her in the end my daughter was bored of the behaviour and passed her drink to her friend as if to say that’s enough and had the one her friend didn’t want with no issues. Then her friend was suddenly happy and throughout the day we kept having to let her friend get her own way and eventually led to my daughter having a melt down

If a child behaved like that at my house they would never be coming again.
My life is too hard and busy to be dealing with stuff like this and I'd tell the mum this.