For GF mums with 2 - advice on schedule for 2nd please

[jennifersofia]

My dd1 (20 mths) is on a GF schedule, and my dd2 (1 mths) is more or less up until late afternoon - around bed and bath it all seems to descend into chaos. This seems to be something that GF doesn't address. How can you bathe, story and bed your toddler when your tiny needs the same thing at the same time? How did other mums deal with this? Also, how do you manage to get out of the house with the two before 4pm? Advice gratefully accepted.

susanmt, I can't really understand why your friend won't breastfeed, all the GF routines are designed for breastfeeding mothers and everyone I know who has done it has breastfed.

Anyway, back to the main point, I don't agree with restructuring a toddlers day to fit in with GF, but I suppose it depends on how slavishly you want to follow it. I am not currently following GF with dd2 but even if I did, it would have to be loosely as I have to take dd1 to nursery during the 'morning nap time'. Dd2 seems to sleep happily in her carseat for the journey and if she's tired enough I can move her to her cot when we get home. If she wakes up, big deal.

I fear this is going to provoke an argument about GFs methods yet again, so I'll just say that you can roughly follow the routines with 2 but you have to be more flexible about it. I can't believe even GF herself would agree to cancelling a toddlers nursery time just to fit in with the routines. If your friend is really keen to carry on with a GF plan, why not contact Gina and find out what she would suggest?

hi susanmt

i've only got the one, but for the specific example you mention, i would just put the baby down a bit earlier and get him up a bit earlier to accommodate the journey to nursery for the toddler. i think you are aware by now that most of us who have used gf on this site are more than willing to flex the routines as necessary!

i agree with enid, i can't understand why using gf would mean that you couldn't breastfeed. i bf for 6m (stopped when i went back to work) and found no problem with the routines, in fact the book has different sections for bf and bottle fed babies in the early period.

also agree with enid that it might be a good idea for your friend to phone gina herself and see what she says. a few people who post here have contacted her and have spoken very favourably about the outcome.

have to say, it does sound like your friend is taking things to extremes. do you know why she feels so strongly? did she have an utter nightmare for a while till finding the book?

anyway, it's very kind for you to offer to take the older child out - but can't help feeling you will inadvertently be colluding with a rather unhealthy mindset.

uh-oh - now i will get it from both sides!

thanks folks!
It is a really hard one. What I find bizarre is she found the book before she gave birth and had decided to follow it from about 6 months pg. She is one of these all or nothing people and doesn't take criticism well, she also is a bit of a control freak. I am afraid it is her attitiude which continues to put me off GF as I think she is damaging her family by taking ot to extremes.
I know a lot of people have breastfed very successfully on GF routines, but I also know several people, this friend included, who tried to bf using the routines and the bf foundered because of refusing demand feeds (trainee bfc hat on!!). She has chosen not to even begin feeding this time as she was so upset by the failure last time, but still thinks the GF routines are more important.
I just dont know what to say to her? Maybe I will suggest she has a telephone consultation. She doesn't have a computer, and I would show her mumsnet, but I have said so much about her here now I am frightened to, she would spot me straight away!
I am trul;y not trying to kick off any more debate, I do want the input of GF mums to see what I can do to help, because it all seems a little unhealthy to me!

Susanmt- I carried on taking ds1 to his groups after ds2 was born and found that ds2 was quite happy to nap in his carseat or pram. He largely drifted off bang on schedule all by himself! As he got older and more alert and awake, he would miss his morning nap for one group, and catch up in the car on the way home again. Another group interupted his feed at 11am, so I just fed early and topped up after the group finished. I tried to make sure that if we'd had a couple of disrupted days we'd stay at home and stick on the routine for the next day, and he was fine with this.

Again cant understand the bf thing. I had a bit of a mare with bf ds1, and gave up after 18 difficult weeks (week 12-18 was purely expressing and givin ebm in a bottle) but I've had no probs this time around. Ds2 is coming up for 7mo and still bfing well. Hurrah! I had lots of support from NCT bf counsellors, friends and this site.
Perhaps get your friend to log in and read some of the bf advise. I found it invaluable.

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Thanks folks for all your replies. It is a har dsituation and I am still not sure what to do. I really dont want to lose her friendship but ..... well we just see life so differently.

Hello fellow GF followers, hoping that some of you might be able to offer me some advice. DD is 22 months, ds 5 weeks....I'm finding it tough to say the least. I'm trying to follow Gina with ds and I suppose overall he is doing really very well but tea-time and bathtime just seem so hard. Are there any of you that bottle fed on GF routine? My dd was breast fed but I only managed about 4 weeks with ds and he is now fully on bottles. I am trying to follow the routines quite strictly but find that ds is a nightmare at 5 pm. I give him a split feed, he has a 4 oz bottle at 5 pm followed by another 4 oz bottle at about 6.30 pm. For some reason he always crys after his 5 pm feed, I've tried giving him a couple ounces of water before the feed, tried to make him take it a bit slower, but about 5 minutes after the bottle he starts crying and sometimes doesn't stop until he is in the bath. I just can't fathom out why.....he is slotting into the routine at most of the other times but unfortunately the 5 pm feed is the one when I could really do with him sitting in his chair whilst I feed dd. I'm getting so desperate I'm considering phoning GF for her advice, but before doing that I wondered if any of you could help with some nagging questions I have about the routines

1. What am I doing wrong at 5 pm?

2. 10/10.30 am feed - ds always wakes up from his nap crying and there is no way at the moment he is willing to waiting until 10.30 for this feed.

3. 10/10.30 pm feed - if I wake ds for this feed, despite being nearly 10 lbs in weight, he still wakes at about 3 am and I can't seem to settle him with anything less than 4 oz plus some water. If I don't wake him and leave him to wake up naturally, he quite often goes from 6.45 pm to about 1 am ????

4. He takes a total of 34 oz of formula a day including the night feed - this seems a lot but he still looks for more and GF recommends increasing the day feeds when they go through the 6 week growth spurt. I've asked HV about quantities of milk but her advice was a bit confusing.

I'm really determined to stick with the routines but I'm finding it hard to get round some of these problems? Any advice very, very welcome.

hi,insnt it so darn fustrating i have 3 under 5, my middle son is 2 in june and baby is 8 months i know how you feel, have you considered upping his 5p.m bottle by an ounce just to see if it satisfies him, could he have trapped wind, i found infacol a god send before feeds, i dont know if your fond of dummies but it may be the sucking sensation thats a comfort to him and he may be getting distressed when the bottle is taken away and the end of the day. lastly chill out hes 5 weeks old your routine will be in full swing by the time hes 5 months you wait and see!

Melly could he be tired at 5? As we all know its a very tiring time of day - dd2 (7 months) is grizzly from 5 even after supper, her bath cheers/livens her up a bit.

I didnt bother following GF with dd2 as I couldnt handle the stress, but we did end up 'doing it' at 4 months and things went well. we still roughly follow it as it fits in well with dd1's 'routine' too.

Could you feed dd a bit earlier while ds has his afternoon nap? Then you would have a bit more time with the baby to soothe/placate him?

Thanks Crazydays and Enid. Yes ds probably is a bit tired at 5 pm, he catnaps on and off between 4 - 5 pm. I did try increasing the 5 pm feed today by 1 oz and he was a fair bit better. Am going to speak to HV again regarding the amount of milk he is taking.

Melly - I don't think he is actually taking too much milk so you could increase the amount of feed you give him. I have known babies of 10days old taking 4 oz. milk when their mothers are still in the hospital. Why don't you just try offering him larger feeds - he might take more at some feeds than he does at others.

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Hi Bloss, thanks for your help. 5 pm feed was slightly better yesterday as I upped that bottle by an ounce. He certainly feeds well at 10.15 pm and I try to keep him awake for at least 45 - 50 mins as Gina suggests, perhaps he needs to be kept awake for a bit longer. This morning he woke at 3.20 am I fed him 3.5 oz preceeded by a couple of ounces of water, but he didn't settle very well, so I guess he still needs a bit more at this feed. As you say, I think i just need to keep going and see if there is any improvement over the course of a week or so, if not then I may well try ringing GF. £60.00 sounds very reasonable to me for all that advice. I know lots of people say that I should chill out but I can't!

Thanks Mears, yes I am going to increase his feed very slightly today and see how we get on. I guess I am just a worrier (and a bit paranoid) and I tend to over analyse everything.

Oh it's hard being a mum isn't it....

I increased ds's 7 am bottle and 10.15 am bottle today and both morning nap and lunchtime nap have been much better, so that's a relief. Have just been looking through an old thread under the Sleep topic about getting babies to go through the night. My ds will be 6 weeks on Friday is just over 10 lbs in weight, so I'm wondering whether I should give him a full feed when he wakes at say 3.30 am or whether I should try the "watering down" method?

A friend rang her recently she now charges a whopping £125 !!!!! So the friend hung up and rang me instead.
Melly - I am an avid GF follower too but I think you need to relax a bit (sorry I don't mean to sound harsh)

1. 5 weeks is very young
2. he seems hungry so give him more!
3. If he is hungry 20 minutes before the official time - then feed him! He may well catch up later. I didn't undertsan your Q3... you feed him at 10PM? Well you could feed him more than 4 oz then. Are you expecting him to already drop the 3AM feed?

Good luck!

Hi Pupuce, thanks for the info. Sorry, yes my third question was a bit confusing - Yes I feed ds at around 10/10.30 pm and he has 6 oz. The night feed ( around 3/3.30 am) is the one which I give about 4 oz, but I think you are right that he is still very young and is obviously waking from genuine hunger at that time, as not only does he scoff his night feed but also scoffs his 7 am feed not leaving a drop!
Just about to go and wake him now for late feed so will see what happens tonight.

Just thought I would revive this thread as a friend of mine is expecting her second child in 3 weeks and is planning to follow GF again. It got me thinking about when I hopefully have another child and whether I would use GF again.

However, DS will be at nursery by then...now how on earth are you meant to follow GF's plan if ds1 needs to be at nursery for 9 and picked up at 12? Surely there must be mums out there who have used GF for number 2 and have addressed this issue? I always think that GF assumes we all have nannies to look after the first born!!

i have used GF for both children DD3 yrs DS1 yr. I thank God for my car. DD goes to nursery at 8.30 and able to get ds back for nap. I pick dd up at 12.15. I then work on a target of 12.30 for ds nap. To be honest, it is not easy and I found that bending the routine to accomadate both children was the easiest way. For Example, at bath times I make up milk before I begin then it is DD in followed by DS then DS comes out first and is dried and dressed followed by dd. DD is then allowed to watch tv until DS put down. Finally, DD gets her story and goes to bed. Does that make sense?

I think alot of juggling is involved having two children whether following GF or not!!

Any other 2nd timers?

I discovered GF when no1 was 4m old, and found her brilliant. I tried GFing no2 from birth, and it was utterly impossible. I don't think it would have worked even had I had a nanny for no1. I'm really not convinced that following GF to the letter is right for every newborn in any case, but I think many of her ideas are great and I certainly apply them wherever I can with both 1 and 2 from 3-4 months on. Inevitably, no1's world has to change a bit to accommodate no2, but it's no2 who has to do most of the fiitting in around no1.

Futurity, now have a bit more experience, as ds now nearing 4 months and dd is 2. It isn't easy having 2 in the GF routines, but I have to say it is definitely worth it. Looking back the first few weeks were the worse as I just couldn't seem to get out as I was so paranoid that ds would sleep "at the wrong time" in the car etc. I did feel quite guilty that dd was a bit cooped up in the house, but she was very good and seemed to understand. In the latest edition of the CLBB Gina does include a bit about how to fit in school runs etc which isn't in the first book, so that's encouraging. I think basically what she is saying is that with only one baby you can, if you choose, ensure that baby always has nap in dark nursery etc, but if you have older children this isn't always possible.
Like so many others have said, I think if you just take the bits of the routines that suit you and slightly alter the other bits to fit in with your life, you should be fine. I personally think that the most important aspects are to make sure the baby doesn't have too much sleep during the day and to stick to a routine at bedtime. If the naps during the day are in the car/buggy etc I really don't think it matters too much.