Is this normal 4 Yr old behaviour or am I failing?

[JerryGarcia]

Found a small bottle of cuticle oil and poured half of it out

Scribbled on the carpet in crayon/paint stick

Drew on walls a few minutes after being told not to

Smothered her and her sisters (DD2) faces in lipstick for the 3rd time despite being told not to

She's just turned 4 this month. She's constantly destroying things through her play and I'm getting so fed up of it. Is it normal for this age or am I doing something wrong? Feel I'm at the end of my tether and have jad a few days where I just want to walk out of the house. Am trying really hard not to be a scary/shouty/cross mum but I have to walk away when she does this stuff as I am constantly undoing things she has done.

It does sound within the realms of typical but at that age I still limited what they could get access to, so pens, paints etc were kept away and only out with supervision.
It might be 'typical' but there would be consequences for it because it's still naughty

She loves activities and we spend time doing things like painting, cooking, out for walks, playing imagination games, puzzles etc but it feels like in the moment between adult led play she is constantly making poor choices and I'm at a loss with how to deal with it.

How old is DD2?

What are the consequences for her behaviour?

My two never did anything like this past say 2 but can't say if it's typical or not. If mine ever did do anything along these lines there would be consequences. They wouldn't have had access to a lot of this stuff either at that age.

She is DD2 is 2.5 years old so very much led by her big sister.

I'm really struggling with appropriate consequences for her tbh. I've been doing time out but also read a lot of negative things about time out and DH doesn't like it. He's not come up with anything himself which is another issue but time out won't work if we aren't both on board anyway.

She is still young and isn't even school age so she isn't exactly making choices but acting on impulse.

Just make sure things you don't want her to play with aren't within her reach.

Children are individuals some pre-school children will see a pen and draw on the walls, others won't on that particular day, and others won't at all on any day. Either way you make sure the pen isn't within their reach as you don't know whether you have child 1, 2 or 3.

Normal but why does she have access?

I would say normal. My just turned 5 yr old wrote her name on her bedroom wall in 6 inch high letters - then said it wasn't her...

She's otherwise really really good (not sure why, it's nothing I've done! Just luck I think) but the lure of pretty paint / make up / pens would be too much. She accidentally got pen on her bed sheets the other day, was a bit upset, but I just figured it was my fault for leaving them out and not supervising.

I think leaving make up, especially, where she can get to it is too tempting. It's so pretty and sparkly, and she sees you with it on your face, she just wants to copy.

Anything like that (paint/playdoh/kinetic sand) is out of reach here and a 'supervision only' toy.

I also found telling DD 'don't do xyz' was a surefire way to make xyz happen! I started saying 'do abc' instead. So not 'don't throw your dinner on the floor' but 'please keep your dinner on your plate' instead. It was like I put the idea of the bad behaviour in her head and she couldn't resist!

OK. Thanks everyone. Basically I need to sort the house out so things are out of her reach.

It's only in the past 6 weeks or so. Up until then she wasn't doing stuff like this.

I'm finding this so difficult. Been doing time out for not listening and for hitting etc but not 100% confident it's tje right approach. I'd really appreciate hearing consequences that work and are age appropriate

Two of mine would never have dreamed of doing those sorts of things at that age, two definitely would (and did!)

It used to really piss me off when people described my easy kids as "good" - they weren't trying their absolute hardest every minute of the day not to do anything "naughty", it was just that the things they wanted to do happened to be things that I didn't mind them doing.

Normal - I'd pack all this stuff away though

I agree with others - this sounds pretty normal and I'd keep things out of reach to limit the destruction!

In terms of consequences, I think these need to be immediate and related if possible. So if she's done something with crayons - no crafting/art for the rest of the day. E.g. 'if you do this, you won't be allowed to do that'... and mean it.

To add, I think at this age they're not very good at being able to resist temptation. They just don't have it in them yet. So reading back over your examples - having those things readily available really doesn't help. For example the lipstick, even though she probably knew she'd get told off again the temptation was too great.

It isn’t normal.

The only way a child learns what not to do is negative consequences. The brain literally learns that X behaviour = reward and Y behaviour = causes me to be sad therefore I will do more X and less Y. (This is why computer games are so addictive: they train the brain to seek a fun result.)

If you have zero negative consequences for her bad behaviour then yes, you are doing a bad job of parenting, as a huge part of parenting is training your child to behave in a socially acceptable way. Painting and cuddles is the easy bit, but the less fun parts of parenting are very important too.

If you do have negative consequences for her behaviour, and she is unable to learn from that, ie has no self control, then she might have ADHD. But as you seem unable to say what the negative consequences are, I suspect that is your problem right there.

You don’t have to shout (I don’t), you don’t have to do time outs (I didn’t) you can still cosleep and play and cuddle lots, but you MUSt give negative consequences that upset the child because that is how they learn bad behaviour = makes me sad therefore I won’t do it.

Also, be careful not to give more attention to the child when she is naughty, for example some children actually like being told off as they enjoy the fuss. Find what works for you. I’ve mostly relied on removing fun things. Eg when she was three, my child got cross about a toy and unprovoked hit snother child in the face. I instantly picked her up, said hitting is wrong and you may not hit unless you are attacked and therefore because you hit, no sugar for you for a month. Everybody else can have sweets and cake every day, but not you, because you chose to hit and that is a bad choice. She cried a lot. Fine with me, that means she is learning. That was 5 years ago and she had never hit anyone ever again. She has done other less naughty things and usually that = screentime ban or loss of a fun day out. She does not repeat bad behaviour and she does not mess with me because she knows I will always follow through.

People envy me because my child is so ‘good as gold’ but it was hard work!

I agree with others - remove temptation.

Mine made really impulsive choices at that age too - she used to 'clean' things by covering them in toothpaste. She's 6 in September and it's definitely stopped, though I couldn't pinpoint when.

That's the word I was looking for - it's impulse control they are still developing at the this age.

I go for natural consequences when they are need but prefer a discussion. Hitting sister, what happened? Why did you do it? How does your sister feel? How do you feel? What would you do next time?

Messing around with lipsticks/pens, remove them or don’t allow access to the toome where they are kept or pens unsupervised to remove temptation but explain they can’t have them by themselves because they have drawn on the wall/sister and that is a problem because x, y,z. Remember to give boundaries before you do some thing eg pens are only to be used on paper or card at the table or in the shop you must stay close to me and not run around and shout.

Sounds like my 2yr old. I've got a just turned 5yr old and she wldnt have done that at 4. However I don't think it's strange maybe just her personality and how she is. I can imagine my 2yr old still being a bit like that when she's just turned 4, she's always up to no good!

We don’t do time out and dd didn’t have this issue but she did go through a difficult patch just turned four

I felt like I really had to lean in and give loads of positive reinforcement, which sometimes felt hard, and also clear expectations- when we go out we need to walk the whole way (not far but she had an issue with outbursts to be carried)

It took a few weeks but she’s fine now

So I think clear expectations and positive reinforcement when they’re being good can help

It was normal in my house. I tried various different methods, always felt a bit unsure around time outs. But when I finally used them regularly and consistently they had a remarkable effect on my kids and home life. Whether that's the approach you choose or not, I think the important thing is that whatever you do you use it regularly and consistently, clear boundaries are so important, and murky or constantly changing boundaries aren't much better than no boundaries at all.

I also spent a long time feeling like I should be able to have things out, and then being upset when those things got broken or trashed. It's actually bought me a lot of peace putting my toiletries up high, and boxing up most of my mementos and precious items so that they aren't getting broken.

My daughter is only 12 weeks old so haven’t had to worry about such things yet but I follow an Instagram account about parenting by a child psychologist which I find very insightful/accessible:

instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I don’t disagree that imposing consequences for bad behaviour is something as a parent you have to do but (having a 5 year old nephew) I do wonder if 4 is still a little too young? She just needs to learn to control her impulses.

Some of those things my 4yo ds would do, others not so much. I keep stuff out of reach to avoid temptation.

In terms of consequences they have to be immediate really, and relevant. Some examples we've had - Ds threw a toy at dd, so he lost that toy for x amount of time. He drew on the table with his colouring pens, after being told not to, so they got put away for a bit because he couldn't be trusted with them. If he hits its an immediate time out and a strong conversation about why its unacceptable. If he messes about at the dinner table instead of eating, his plate is removed until he can sit nicely. He threw his toys all over the floor after being warned not to, so he had to help me pick them up instead of getting to watch TV during that time. That kind of thing. Short and immediate with a clear link between action and consequence.