Has anyone ever wanted a DC all their life and then changed their minds?

[onthefencesitter]

I thought I wanted a DC (and my own family) all my life. I come from an SE Asian country where inter-generational living is the norm and its very normal to have a domestic helper, hence easy for a woman to work and have a family. My mum worked 12 hour days with a 'big career' and had 2 daughters who were cared for by her MIL. So it never occured to me that you couldn't have it all.

I never felt I fit in my family, my parents openly favoured my sister who was viewed as the family genius. I didn't really like living in my home country either, so when I was a kid I longed to get married and have my own little family. People don't tend to move out of their parents' homes until they get married in my home country; its also quite difficult due to government policy where you can only buy a government apartment when you are married or you are above the age of 34 (you need millions to buy a condo on the private market so not really a FTB kind of property or feasible for even a single professional). I worked really hard to get into a British university and I moved to London at 19. Met my DH at university and we fell in love. We knew we wanted to be together for the rest of our lives so we married. I assumed we would start a family some day but of course at 22 and 24, our priorities were visas, settling down and starting our career.

Also we moved back to London after DH's masters degree and I was so terrified about being priced out of London due to rising rent that I decided to make it our top priority to buy a property. We moved in with DH's mum so we could save.

At that time, I did look up childcare/nursery fees so that I could plan for the future and was shocked at how much they were (in my home country, this isn't really an issue as there is a low birth rate so the government offers a lot of financial incentives for people to have kids). Also DH's mum didn't seem very forthcoming regarding helping us with any future DC. Basically I learnt really quickly that having a child in the west is a totally different ball game to what I expected and observed growing up. Things like maid and grandma providing 24/7 childcare is completely out of the question.

But I thought, ok we love each other and DH agrees with wanting a family... so we will try to make it work, we will have 1 DC. I mean, I actually never 'imagined' having more than 1 DC so I reached this decision relatively quickly. DH is a born and bred Londoner, our jobs were in London, we didn't want to pay commute fares so we wanted to stay in London. So we would pay for london property and 1 X london full time childcare costs. Sounds like a plan. I even joined lots of only child forums just to see how it was working out for others.

We managed to buy our 2 bed london flat in zone 3 north london in 2019. I was 27, DH was 29. I even bought the flat with school catchments in mind. DH was quite apprehensive about spending so much on our flat, he wondered if he was better off renting but i told him we needed this for our future child, we wouldn't want to be evicted if we had a child (we actually saw a real life example of this while we were viewing flats in London; the landlord wanted to sell up and lied to the family with a baby that she was selling with tenants in situ when she was doing no such thing). DH has since changed his mind after he saw how much london rents have risen since 2019 while our mortgage has stayed the same (fixed rate), plus we are overpaying instead of the money sitting in the bank.

Theoretically, we should be TTC now. DH's sister who married after us and is the same age, is already pregnant. However, I now seem to be dithering- should we wait until we buy a bigger 3 bedroom flat so that we can get a bigger mortgage pre DC (would want to stay in London to be near his mum even if we get very occasional childcare and also for the sake of our commutes)?Should we wait until we earn more money?

I just wonder if I really want a DC or not. My DH's response to all of this is that its up to me as its my body (I do get the feeling he would love to be a father), and it wouldn't be a deal breaker for him if I never felt ready. I read a lot of posts about people who never wanted to be parents but then changed their minds. I haven't read a lot of posts about people who always wanted DC but then changed their minds. I feel like in my case, it is relevant to tell you all the whole back story cos in a way, maybe its for me its not that I am opposed to having a DC, its just that I find it hard to get my head around the reality of having a DC in UK in 2022. I don't really have any role models in this respect (and tbh a lot of mumsnet threads scare me; my mum never cleaned or cooked despite having 2 daughters as its normal to eat out everyday in my home country and my grandma did the cleaning so her mothering was playing with us and tutoring us). Even my grandma who was a secretary/nurse had her mum and a distant relative (who was a nanny) look after her 3 kids until they were primary school age. Even my great grandmother had an Amah to help look after the 8 kids! My MIL (who is European and an orthodox Jew) had 4 kids despite having very little money, she was WFH (self employed) and looking after 4 kids on a single low income; basically it was very hard, and it is definitely not something I want to experience! Her advice to me is not very helpful- she says stuff like you can WFH and look after your baby at the same time. DH was on free school meals and that is why he is actually supportive of my dithering for the most part; he wants to give any future DC a good life and of course having children in your 30s when you are more financially established is the norm in London these days.

Basically if I do become a mum, i would be the first in many generations to not have live in help (for at least some time). I know I shouldn't be scared but at the same time, I feel really apprehensive. I wonder if my dithering is a projection of my subconscious fear. Otherwise I love my life in London; my DH and I have an amazing relationship and we love our home. We have a comfortable life. We aren't affected by cost of living crisis.

Thank you for reading if you made it this far. I just have a lot of conflicting thoughts and so I want to write them all down. I just don't know if my dithering is really because I want to have a baby when I am ready (though of course there is no perfect time for a baby) and am a perfectionist who wants to engineer things; or because I don't want to have a baby deep down. The latter might even be understandable in the context of my background; after all when I was dreaming of DC and socialized to have DC, it was having DC in a completely different society/world compared to the one I inhabit now?

I realized that my post doesn't paint DH's mum in a good light. I don't expect free childcare from her, or judge her for having lots of DC. I know I have to pay for childcare, thats just the way it is in the UK. But you can't deny that its something that is a big con of having DC. Also hearing my DH talk about his mum's struggles to raise kids alone in London actually makes me worry more ( i know this is irrational as our financial circumstances are very different).

If your desire to have children is contingent on having someone else raise them, I think it's probably best if you don't. Children are a LOT of work.

@MolliciousIntent It isn't contingent. Its the difference between a a society where the extended family helps and a society where nuclear families are the norm. I guess they are very different set-ups and switching from one to the other requires adjustment of expectations! I mean, extended family set-ups are no picnic either! The DC get cared for but at a price!

I think you’ve just summed up a lot of the issues that women face in the UK and you see posted about on mumsnet all the time. Raising kids with no extended family support or live in paid help is hard bloody work and very expensive, especially if both of you are trying to thrive in professional jobs. I feel like I’m spread to my absolute limit and that nothing gets 100% of me. The spinning plates are precarious and it doesn’t take much for them to crash down. I love my new life with DS but I wish I hadn’t taken for granted how much easier my life was before he came along. You are right to think about this - of course it’s doable, millions do it. But it isn’t easy (in my experience, anyway).

I think that's the fact that your are reconsidering and thinking of all the aspects on which motherhood would be different to the way you were brought up, means that you will be fine.

Finances you've also thought about and sounds like that would be fine too.

So you'd be going in with eyes wide open, as it were. All you need to decide is whether you actually want to have children.

@stickygotstuck how does one decide? i am leaning towards wanting a child because I do see a child in my future. But at that the same time, if I found out I was infertile, I am not sure if I would be devastated because in my mind, thats life and there isn't much I can do about my own biology (or my DH's biology). There isn't anything to regret from that perspective. Maybe even a little relieved because that is a decision taken out of my hands. Thats why I think I am on the fence...

I don’t think one can logically decide beyond optimising the practical things, like you have already done. It comes down to stick or twist really. It’s not like you can have a practice run. You either decide the perceived ‘risks’ of DC are worth it and go for it. Or you decide not to take that risk and carry on with your life as you know it. Both options come with lots of unknowns. You may have a healthy DC and find the whole thing a a breeze. You may have a child with significant, life limiting health needs. You may just not enjoy the realities of parenting. Alternatively, you may regret not having DC when, biologically it’s too late.

I think at your age you have a bit longer to decide. What do you think would happen if you found out you were pregnant accidentally tomorrow?

OP I'm not the best person to ask. Making bug decisions is not my strong suit!

I have one DC. I never wanted to have DC, not as a child and not as a young woman, just not on my radar. I was never maternal but mostly it scared me that I'd be unable to do a good job. Then one fine day my biological clock kicked in and I had DD at 35. Weirdly, that was not a hard decision, when it should have been. I had a stable marriage and work life.

What was hard was to decide whether to have a second one or not. Agonising about it constantly for about 2-3 years. I had experienced it myself, and yet it was very, very difficult to make a decision (for disclosure, in the end I decided not to. The deciding factor was how extremely tough I found it with DD).

It sounds to me like you are not that keen, perhaps you simply assumed you would have one, as that's 'what people do'. You are young. In your shoes, I'd hold off until I felt the biological urge. If you never do, don't have a child.
Easy for me to say though!

@Isonthecase I would have the baby and make do with what we have. We are used to having money to overpay the mortgage, that would go. My study will become the nursery. But it will be tough

@stickygotstuck does it really sound like that? I do like babies and I do wonder what my child will look like/be like. I had a period of time when I was looking at prams!

I think my broodiness has ebbed through the years maybe because as I grow older, I 'have more' and stand to lose more. When I was living in a studio flat in Berlin as a 22 year old, I had little and was avidly telling my DH, we could fit triplets in the floor space! It wasn't serious and we knew we couldn't have kids, but the prospect was appealing to me at that time for some reason!

Hi Op, you should know that there is life outside London. We live in the North-West and I was mortgage free at 32. It always makes me laugh when Londoners are not willing to give up London but clearly cannot afford living there.

We are very similar in terms of how we think about starting a family but trust me when you are ready for a baby you will know it.

Your life with dc if you have them won't be quite like your upbringing, but that's fine. There's more than one way to do things. It is definitely doable. I grew up without that stuff and my dc are growing up the same way. I wouldn't have it any other way, I wouldn't want a "maid" (someone else living in my house - nah) and I wouldn't want a grandparent doing 24/7 childcare. My parents have never looked after my dc ever, PILs live abroad and have never even met them. We cope fine. And I am not more capable than you, or richer, I work, etc. You can do it too.

Of course if you've changed your mind about having dc in general that's also fine, being child free is a great choice too.

@Angeldelight21 Honestly the cost of living crisis made me feel grateful that we didn't leave London! I mean, our mortgage has stayed at the same level and we overpay an extra £1k per month, we have pretty much the same expenses in terms of groceries/bills/council tax plus don't need to run a car; but yet our pay has kept above inflation esp DH. And there is more scope to grow our salaries in London and anyway we both work in financial services where the main hub is in London.

I mean, inflation is here to stay and that is often on non housing related expenses that you absolutely can't save on. My MIL is pretty much mortgage free but has far less disposable income than us despite our large mortgage. Yes London is more expensive but the north west is not Thailand or Malaysia, there is still a basic cost of living wherever you are in the country and that is a larger percentage of a lower salary. Its why pensioners are the worst hit by the inflation crisis even though they are mostly mortgage free.

I've not read the full post I'll be honest.

But you live in London where everything is five times more expensive than other parts of the UK. I live in North Wales and rent/mortgages and childcare costs are a fraction of what they are in London. So you're not seeing the full picture of what its like in the UK.

@Angeldelight21 I mean not to knock the Northwest, I personally love Manchester! DH's sister really tried to create a life for herself in Manchester but she has now moved onto Israel where there are apparently more opportunities! That may be because she has moved to the equivalent of London in Israel.

Its a bit scary, her rent in Israel for 1 room is the same as my mortgage in London! Generally for the Jewish population in the UK, its a choice between London or Manchester... or Israel as these are the places with a significant Jewish population.

@Frankcastlestalker I once compared with my friend in Yorkshire and her outgoings were the same as mine even though her household income was 25% of our household income! And she was the thrifty type. Even her council tax was higher! It made me realize how true it was that it was more expensive to be poor.

This was because of a list of factors: (a) private rent, (b) fewer job opportunities so more periods of unemployment and hence some debt, (c) running 2 cars because no public transport. I have lower costs in London than many because i had free accommodation for a few years which enabled us to save a big deposit. Childcare is very expensive, I suppose, but we are at least near DH's mum who may do some childcare on an ad hoc basis even though she is not committed, which may save some money; as opposed to being in a completely different place where there would definitely be zero help.

It's difficult to make a decision because of the paradox of choice. You'll always see the negative in what you've chosen - and what you're stuck with. It's how the brain works.

There are negatives either way.

I think you should ask yourself if you want a family and don't overthink. If you don't , then great. But if you do, you'll work it out.

Of course they are hard work. We planned one baby and ended up with twins first time pregnant. I wanted a family and I have one. ☺️. That's not to say it is extremely hard work sometimes. I love being with my DC and also being without 🤣.

Do you think you might be looking for permission not to have kids? Because it is genuinely ok not to - you can absolutely have a full and fulfilling life without having children. You can also have kids in your life that aren't yours if you nurture relationships with this your friends and family have. It is your life and your body and your choice.

@Isonthecase My DH's sisters don't live in London anymore and my family are overseas. I don't think any future DC would have cousins even in the same country!

The thing is if you asked me whether I want a child, I would say yes. But if you asked me if I would be regretful if I never had a child, I would probably say maybe not esp if it was a fertility related reason I did not have a child. I think the main reason which is pushing me to have a child is the natural human instinct to aim for one's best life. In my best life, I would have a child and I would overcome all difficulties with my sheer determination and I would look back and smile. My mum had me while she was doing her MBA and working full time, and she somehow managed that (though she did have my grandma helping her); I was an accident that happened due to my parents taking contraception advice from their catholic priest :)

But there is also a little voice in my head that is telling me to be comfortable with what I have. There is also another little voice, telling me to wait until I feel more 'ready'. Thats why I am conflicted.

You'll never be "ready". Honestly, there is never a right time.

If you want a child go for it - you will work it out. I had unplanned (obviously) twins and I worked it out.

It is 100% fine to not have a child obviously but I think people who are genuinely happy with that decision don't debate it on mums-net (just my two cents).

It's scary to worry about kids and how you'll cope. Kids are hard work and expensive, of course they are. But don't let that stop you because you will it out.

I think you really need to lose your 'back home' mindset. Look at your mum friends in your local area/community and see how they are doing things. You are committed to living in London, so you need to live in the here and now going forward. I say this as a lot of women in my community get very sad after birth because "it's not like back home" and I do think this contributes to PND. Everything they do here is measured against "back home" and family support in UK pales in comparison, so it's inevitably disappointing.
You are in a good financial position, would you be able to go down to 4 days a week in work to not only save on childcare, but to enjoy motherhood a bit more?
I did the opposite of you OP. I got married at 18 and had my dc before I was 22. We weren't home owners at that stage, and looking back we didn't have a lot but it always felt enough. I think when you're younger you're more naive and there was beauty in that. I feel having a child is much more complicated now, I fully intend to do child care for any future dgc God willing as it is so hard for the younger generation now with increased living costs.

I suppose the bright side to having a child in the UK rather than your home country is that you won't be expected to nanny and clean 24/7 for your grandchildren when your retired. I couldn't help feeling sorry for your grandmother while reading your OP!

@shivawn my grandma sadly passed on last month. She worked in her youth and until her kids were 6 before giving up and becoming a stay at home mum. As my home country was pretty much third world at the time, the pension she accumulated was meagre. My home country doesn't have a 'state pension' as such, people save 20% of their income for retirement. It's ok in today's context as people in my home country today earn on par or more than Londoners but for that earlier generation, well it's bloody miserable because the country has grown so much richer but many of them have not been able to accumulate wealth in the same way. My grandfather had a good civil service pension on top of his retirement funds but sold his property to fund his kids' overseas education. My grandparents however lived well until they passed on, as they lived with us and my dad paid all bills plus their children all gave them allowances and they also had pension.

my grandfather's medical fees were free for him and his spouse while he was alive but my grandma was not covered after he died. Towards the end of her life, we realized that my grandma only had a few thousand in her medical account for medical bills so my dad paid the excess (he paid insurance for her for many years anyway) and my dad also paid care home fees plus a full time Maid to care for her 24/7 until she went into a care home. My grandma did not qualify for maximum subsidy as she lived in private housing (and her home that she sold off was private housing) and in my home country, the system is such that you only get generous subsidies for healthcare if you own a government flat like 85% of the population. My grandparents bought private housing not because they were rich but because they purchased their home during British times and the British didn't really build a lot of government subsidized housing (sounds familiar?) Of course today you have to be a millionaire to buy private housing.

So basically what I am saying is my grandma might have been a full time nanny but she also got medical bills and housing etc paid for till the end of her life. This isn't an option many British people of her generation need at the moment as for now we still have a welfare state. I am in my 20s and who knows what the future brings! I own my home but who knows if I have to sell it off to fund future medical costs and probably move in with my kid (and then earn my keep through childcare and cleaning!). Nuclear living is a luxury we can afford for now but I would never assume that. It is forever. After all it is a relatively unusual and modern way of living. So is free medical care.

My uncle in America had private medical care all his life but is moving back to Asia as it's too expensive to fund as a pensioner. He earns well above the average American ( didn't even qualify for biden's helicopter furlough money which was payable to all households earning below 160k). My husband and I have private medical care now but we probably can't afford it when we are older and if there is no NHS... Well the solution is inevitable isn't it?

Two things strike me 1) is that you aren't ready yet and you have time, these decisions are mostly gut level not reasoned and 2) you can see things too clearly - you are concerned about having to pay for help, my concern turned out to be the paid help is just no substitute for a supportive extended family.

But a goal of one dc, you build up a network of friends in a similar position and you swap favours. Your network matters here because a lot of people especially in London cannot rely on extended family support.

One dc is a hard-ish slog for the first 3-5 years, two dc and that's when you start to be underwater in your earnings, logistically very challenged, very exhausted and wondering when you'll next experience any kid free time imho!