Punshiments/consequences

[ThisMustBeMyDream]

I have two DS aged 9 and almost 7. The 9 year old has autism and adhd and is getting more and more difficult to handle as each year passes. No support externally at all. Rejected from everything tried. Latest refusal from cahms. You name it, we've tried it.
So I'm turning to mumsnet for some ideas.
What punishments or consequences do you use for the following behaviours? Violence (hitting sibling). Spitting. Refusal to follow basic order. Lying. Stealing. Biting. Name calling and nastiness verbally. Do you have different punishments or consequences for these? Do you see some behaviours as worse than others?
Our biggest problems at home are verbal bickering, winding up, name calling, some hitting of each other (I'd say one will hit the other once a week - not a full on punch, more of a back hander to the chest or back or something). We have some of the other issues, but the sibling fall outs are the biggest issue.
My 6 year old doesn't behave like it at school. It is solely directed at his brother. His eyes glint when he sets the firecracker off in his brother. He doesn't really lie, spit, refuse to follow orders though. He is a sweet kid when it's just him. It's all sibling arguments basically.
My 9 year old is like this at every setting however. No difference wherever he is. He's pretty bloody consistent. He is, however, a lovely boy when not around other children. He is gentle, kind, caring, loves animals, and wants to learn. But he is not coping with other children, including his brother. This is his autism at play.
I'm just at a loss as to how to get them to change their behaviours as all the things that work for most children simply don't with mine, particularly my 9 year old. They don't "play out" so "grounding" isn't an option. We don't have regular use of ipads, consoles etc. as these are meltdown triggers.They are too young for phones and the like. So no tech to confiscate. The only things I can remove are TV privileges, toys, or "treats". But these don't work. Well, if at 9 he is still like this, they can't work! They often cause further problems too. I find them a vicious circle.
I try to give natural consequences, if I can. But you can't give a natural consequence to a child that doesn't care ie. I bit my brother and now he doesn't want to play with me. Eldest sees that as a bonus as he likes playing alone!!
I don't think it helps as they share a room, and there is no real way to give them much space from each other. Will be moving soon though hopefully and they will have their own rooms plus playroom if I find the right house.
If anyone would like to share with me how they deal with these issues, that would be great. I need more ideas because no professional wants to help, and all the stuff I've been advised to do is just completely ineffective. Oh, and I'm a single parent to them with no other parental input. Just to make things even harder....

I recommend to read The Explosive Child by Ross Greene.

You can’t parent a neurodivergent child in the same way you might parent a neurotypical child. A lot of it is about communication. They will be trying to communicate something, you just gotta figure out what.

I'm pretty sure he is telling me he doesn't want a brother, or to be around other kids. I just can't do anything about that though.
I'm sure the younger one is just reacting to his brother mostly.

I separate them and give them time to calm down. If they can't have their own rooms, at least their own marked out space that the other one may not enter. Obv that has to be policed a lot.

For myself, I differentiate strongly between violence and non violence. On your list, spitting hitting and biting (also, grabbing, tripping, wrestling, snatching and threats of violence etc.), I'll always do something, take whatever they want away, basically and time out. The other other non violent stuff I usually just talk to them. I'm not sure how effective any of it is, though. Other Mums I know allow a bit of "friendly violence" between sons, like playful wrestling, but I just can't get the hang of it myself.

The other thing that seems to work is schedules and routines. If they're busy with those, they bother each other less.

But yeah, they need to be able to do their own time out. If one doesn't want to play, the others have to respect it. That's essential, otherwise they will end up violent ime.

Also I let many behaviours go. For example, we had a big problem with swearing. CAMHS suggested to me to remind him once each day we don’t use that language but then completely ignore it. It’s slow progress (and difficult when you have a 6 year old calling you bitch in the supermarket) but actually the swearing is much less than it used to be.

In my experience too much punishment/consequences led to a downward spiral. Basically I pick one behaviour at a time to work on and ignore the rest.

Finally, never take something away completely as it’s too demotivating. For example, mine get a minimum set amount of screen time which is like protected and they always get. They can earn extra with good behaviour but I never go below the minimum.

Final thought - I remembered something else I tried one time when they were punching each other (I have 3 boys). I showed them a YouTube video about a guy who was left permanently disabled from one punch. This was actually quite successful as it did get through to them that just one punch can have long lasting consequences. I don’t tend to get involved in verbal squabbling but I never let violence go.

Also - don’t loose hope. This week my 14 year old actually spent time with my 9 year old helping him to play a game on the PS5. Something a few years ago I thought would never happen.

Try a non punishment approach like the explosive child.

The communication is a bit more subtle than things like I don't want a brother. But certainly finding being a brother/having a brother hard is a valid emotion and you could help him explore that. But mainly you're looking at the skills they are lacking to deal with a situation appropriately and helping them build those skills.

If you search Ross Greene collaborative problem solving on YouTube you can find him explaining a bit about how he developed the method and why which is helpful and would help you decide if the book will be helpful for you.

Sorry to post twice in a row - I was thinking about this last night and thought of a better explanation.

Knowing the reason/communication behind the behaviour does not mean that you need to fix the situation for him. As an autistic child and later an autistic adult it is quite plausible that he does not like to be around other people. Unfortunately, as you say, it's not always an option. Sometimes he will have to be. So in fact, even if you could make his brother go away, that isn't very helpful. It won't help him learn to manage that situation better, and it's something he will have to manage on his own. It won't do him any good if he goes to university or his first job or a house share and then because you're not there to police him any more, bites anyone who sits too close to him! So punishment is unlikely to be helpful. You need to be giving him skills that he can use for himself to manage situations that he finds difficult. So: Problem solving - what is happening that triggers any of these behaviours? What is your expectation that he is failing to meet? Is it a reasonable expectation, first of all? What would you want him to do instead, what would an appropriate reaction look like? That can be much clearer and make far more difference than focusing on what not to do and punishing that. Otherwise his experience is - well - biting works to make my brother go away. It's brother's fault that I got punished - he will not necessarily connect the action to the reaction in the way that you expect.

It's good that you are moving house soon, that should help. In the meantime, perhaps you could find some way to divide the room that is clear - even something like a masking tape line across the carpet - or better, rearrange furniture to make two separate mini "rooms" if there is enough space. If you currently have the bigger bedroom, I would even swap with them to achieve this. When it is clear, then you can have a conversation with your 6 year old about respecting the boundary and that could involve some kind of consequence if it's helpful. At six though, it's likely that is is fun for him to wind up his older brother. They don't have a great sense of empathy at that age and it can be genuinely entertaining. It also might be a way that he is trying to play/connect with him if he is often rejected by him? It might be that you can find some (any!) shared activity that they could do (even if it needs a lot of close input from you) which would increase their connection/bond.

Have you read the book Siblings Without Rivalry (from the how to talk series)? This is great although not autism specific. It has a lot of non-punishment based suggestions and useful pointers.

Does your 9yo know he has autism, and what it means? Does the 6yo?

For your 9yo you could work on tolerance skills so that if he is in a communal area, ways that he could reduce the stimulus of other people - perhaps something like noise cancelling headphones, or ear defenders. These could also be a great accommodation for him to have at school. In my eldest son's school, one father bought a set of ear defenders for about 1/3 of the class, so that any child who wanted to could choose to wear them, to reduce the stigma for his child. My son chose to (he has ADHD but it wasn't diagnosed then) and said it was helpful. We are not in the UK and I did have the sense that in the UK they wouldn't be seen as neutral in the same way but it could be something to try.

The fact they only get physical about once a week is also actually really good - a lot of siblings are fighting more than this. So please don't feel like you're failing, it sounds like you're doing a great job already.