Silly pant pulling behaviour. How to help

[WorriedMum444]

My children are 9 (has autism and adhd) 6 and 5. The 9 and 6 year olds are being really silly about genitalia the moment and I've had quite a few talks, including using Pantosaurus and the other resources available. That seemed to make matters worse to be honest. They became more aware of it being an issue, therefore it seemed to become more fun to be silly about.
Today at bedtime they were in the bathroom all doing teeth whilst DP was finding their bedtime story. The eldest had new pjs on which are a bit big given he is so very skinny. Apparently they slipped down which they then found hilarious. 9 and 6 then engaged in a game of pulling each others pants down (at the bum) and lifting the nightie of 5 year old. 5 year old was cross at them. DP intervened at this point. Apparently there may have been some grabbing towards genitalia from the eldest two, but we couldn't establish the truth on that.
I don't know what to do. We should be able to leave them for short periods without being worried that they will find games like this fun to play.
I would say my 9 year old is more in line with my 6 year old in terms of behaviour and emotional development. I'm not sure where to go now.
My 6 year old is normally well behaved at school, but is being very silly at home sometimes. However just before the holidays one of the teachers told me that he had been in reflection time for hitting other children in the privates and being told to stop once, then immediately doing it again. It was a game the children were playing apparently, but he did it after he had been told to stop so had the punishment.
I'm at a loss because educating and talking to them doesn't work, and nor does punishment. Does anyone have any suggestions?

I think you have to come down on this like a tonne of bricks, personally. I have the vividest memories of being aged about 5 or 6 and a boy at school pulling my skirt over my head - I didn't have the language to express how it felt at the time but it was a very upsetting experience though I didn't know why. This sort of behaviour may be common, but it is completely unacceptable, and I'd be handing out top level sanctions for incidents at home and at school.

OK, but what I'm saying is punishments haven't worked clearly. So, any other suggestions?

I think you need to revisit what you're doing as a punishment. If you're addressing this in the same way you're addressing say, shouting at you or hitting a sibling or deliberately breaking something, you need to step it up a level. This is completely unacceptable behaviour and they need to know that. This is "in your room for the rest of the day" behaviour, not "no iPad for an hour" behaviour.

You need to do whatever it takes to make your boys understand that they cannot just grab or expose people's genitals whenever they fancy because they find it funny. Especially your 9yr old. His SEN may mean that he has a lower level of maturity, but that is not necessarily immediately obvious to others, and he will swiftly find himself in a great deal of trouble if he continues.

The punishments have been accordingly. They don't work.
Like I say, I need other ideas because Punishments Don't Work. Nor does education or all the nspcc stuff. They find it funny to pull each others pants and just take whatever the punishment is, no matter the severity.

Is this just between the two of them like a game, or are they doing it to other children?

It’s just funny at that age and not an indicator of anything.
The only problem is that doing it (or anything) to others without consent can lead to trouble for both parties. Just reinforce that they should never touch any other person, including their sister or each other, if the other person doesn’t want it.
To help with the silliness why not join in a bit, telling some silly or “rude” jokes, so they can have a laugh with you and see you’re not a boring old prude to be ignored - but also so they know you can be talked to properly about these things if needs be.

They could clean their teeth and be in the bathroom separately if they are mucking around. They might complain they are not babies so tell them to stop behaving like babies.

Consequences /punishments are not magic on the spot solutions, they take a while to work/sink in. Keep going giving the same message and appropriate consequence consistently and they will get it eventually, but it could take weeks/months.

I think punishment is a bit harsh and unnecessary. Just keep chatting, let them be a bit silly with you but point out the boundaries.

I would separate them at bedtime and cut down the opportunities to pull down pants.

I think this is an instance where it is justifiable to really raise your voice, tbh.

Along the lines of ‘Don’t you DARE do that to her.’

I do get that there probably wasn’t malicious intent behind it but they really can’t be doing that.

So - I don't do punishments and I never have. My DD is 5 and NT (I think) and we have a constant stream of family and friends kids in the house so there's a lot of opportunity for friction between the kids and my DD can be v hot headed.

So - here is what I do.

When DD does something wrong and upsets another kid I say. Oh DD I'm sorry about this but I can't let you do that and I send friend home or separate them. But I'm not cross about it or punitive or whatever. I'm just a bit sympathetic but explain that natural consequences are that she can't be with friend / cousin or whatever.

Worth a try? It's a bit high maintenance as a strategy but it stops the bad behaviour becoming a game or a battle or wills or a humiliation or whatever.

Doing it to each other is one thing and if you’re sure they’re both happy if just leave them to it BUT doing it to others and continuing after that person has asked them not to is a much bigger issue. Lifting their sisters skirts is not on and would cause serious issues outside the home.
Personally would have said they’re too old for such nonsense.
What do you do when they break your rules in other ways??
It sounds like they can’t actually be left alone.

I may be missing something here but if you want it to stop. I would calmly ask them to please stop and explain briefly why.
"We don't grab each other roughly, or without asking, and you've upset (the five year old)".
If they don't stop, then I would ask more firmly.
And then if they still carry on, I would threaten with, and then follow through if they didn't stop, with immediate bed with no story, no discussion ie natural consequences!

Next day, and next week, way before bed-time, prepare them properly with your expectations and give them the best chance to behave well.
"Tonight I expect good behaviour and no messing around while getting ready for bed and then we can enjoy a lovely story together".

But happy to be told that's the wrong thing to do in terms of new parenting methods today!

Kids at that age are just silly like that. We all know it's unacceptable (that is WHY the OP has posted). I don't have any answers, if it was me I think I would just keep them separate and not allow them to change into their pjs until they were getting into bed as presumably their normal clothes are harder to pull down.

Would it work to reward with a sticker/sweet/20p if they have made it to bedtime without the silliness? Some kids respond better than others to rewards but might be worth a try.

My eldest and his cousin had a phase of doing this when they were around 4 and 5. I taught them the underwear rule, and that this kind of behaviour is always absolutely unacceptable. I had to repeat myself quite a few times:
"Pulling other people's pants down is, at best, annoying and at worst creepy."

They just thought it was funny and didn't really get why it wasn't OK, because, at that age, neither of them would have minded having it done to them. Then they grew up a bit and realised for themselves that it wasn't on.

We also had to do a lot of "No means no, IMMEDIATELY!" with regard to play fighting and getting them to listen to and respect each other.

I think the thing is, healthy children don't really have these boundaries when they are little and innocent and maybe it doesn't matter at that time. But you can start to gently teach them to respect each other so that when they are a bit older they already know the rules.

It can take a lot of repetition and consistency of consequences before it gets predictable enough to really sink in.

I agree with pp it would be a good idea for your sanity and breaking this habit of hilarious fun while ignoring mum by being one step ahead all the time and separating and supervising so there's no opportunity to practice it.

Oh, and obviously, if they play like that with children who are not OK with that kind of rough/silly/ disrespectful play, they have to be told very firmly that is isn't on, with time-outs and then loss of privileges to enforce the message if there are any repeats.

Do you know about Social Stories? Your eldest's school will be familiar with them, and I am sure will help you write one, or have one already that you can use. It is a well researched and effective way of helping with problem behaviours with autistic children. You can also just Google it if you want to try yourself. The key is that the language must be at a level appropriate for the child, so if your 9 year old has comprehension of a 6/7 year old, then that is the language level you must use. If necessary, you could also ask the school to help you with Widgets, or similar, which is the picture symbols they will use in class for timetables etc.