Help me sort ds1's bedtime out, he is four years old and the worst he has ever been.

[colditz]

I put him to bed, he gets straight back up again, wandering around, fiddling with things, jumping on the bed, poking his brother, insisting on going to the toilet again and again (he really doesn't need to go, he only starts demanding to when I tell him he is to stay in bed and stop wandering around), standing tapping the window and I am angry, and I am tired and I have not had an hour to myself for about 2 weeks.

I told him that every time he gets up out of bed he loses a piece of his hotwheels for tomorrow - well, he's now lost every single piece and all 20 of the cars.

He just doesn't seem to get tired any more. he's got a "I'll do what I want to do" attitude and I am finding it so wearing - but on the other hand he can switch the tears on really quick and I crumble.

Oh ps Star charts don't work on him for this because he wants the star NOW THIS MINUTE and has forgotten it by tomorrow. I am at the moment praising him every two minutes for being in bed but this is after I have reduced him to tears by shouting and having a paddy at him.

have you tried rapid return? it's bloody tiring but it does work.

tell him in advance that he'll be going to bed (ie, it's bedtime in 5 minutes etc etc)
take him up and settle him down.
if he gets up then say "it's bedtime, goodnight" and put him back.
he gets up again you say "it's bedtime" and put him back
he gets up again and you say nothing jus tput him back

DO NOT talk to him. don't enter into conversation because that's what he wants. Just keep returning him to his bed.
as I say, it will take a long time the first night or so and you have to steel yourself for it but it really does work.

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Agree re rapid return.

Be firm, no talking, no real eye contact, just STRAIGHT back to bed. You will need to hover outside his door - don't let him get back downstairs.

Does he share a room with his brother? If so you might need to put his brother in your bed until the phase has passed.

My 6 and 9 month old has started getting out of bed once tucked in and going to the loo about 3 times so maybe it is a boy thing. I also think with mine he may be ready to go to bed a bit later.

Have you tried giving him a bit of independence once he's in his room. DS1 is 3 and we've put a nightlight in for him so that once we've settled him and read him a story he can look at his books or play with his toys (a few carefully selected ones) until he's ready to settle down. We took the attitude that you can't force a child to sleep if they're not ready but at the same time it wasn't acceptable for him to be running round the house til he drops. Although not suitable for a 4yo we've left his gate in place for now but are thinking of removing it soon and seeing how he goes. Its actually quite lovely to hear him chatting to himself or 'reading' the story books and usually he's asleep within half and hour or so.

I can't, it would wake his brother up. He does wake his brother up. I do try to ignore it as much as possible, but I can't ignore him standing on the side of the bath trying to switch the shower on, or using a pair of nail clippers stolebn from my knicker drawer to snip holes in books, or bouncing on the bed singing the alphabet song, or taking his brother's dummy right out of his mouth

I think I will have to resign myself to sitting outside his bedroom door!

A big part of the pronblem is that he doesn't get up because he wants my attention, he gets up to bugger about, sometimes really quietly so he doesn't get caught.

"He just doesn't seem to get tired any more"

Downstairs.

Mad Rumpus with Daddy until he starts yawning.

Then bed.

hmm, that wouldn't work with many kids I think emma! My ds for instance would not actually start yawning till 1am if mad rumpus was on the menu at bedtime!!

What is the bedtime routine like colditz? Any scope for any more 'winding down' type stuff - warm milk, stories, etc?

I must say at this age ds actually had us in the room with him - we agreed we would lay with him after stories so long as he lay down and snuggled up. If he got up or carried on chatting, then we would say "OK then I'll go". They usually don't want you to go once you're there so it worked for us.

Once he got more used to the routine we then reduced the amount of time laying with him, saying we had to do this or that then would come back and check on him in five minutes. DS is 5.5 and we still go up and down checking on him a few times. It works for us, anyway.

Oh. Rumpus works with me. Works with lots of people I know. Party party party. Get tired. Yawn. Go to bed. Go to sleep. Isn't that how we all live? Do any of you go to bed before you are tired?

But then, we don't have bedtimes in our house. Everyone goes to sleep when they are tired. It tends to be around the same time every night, but there's noone dictating when anyone else is going to go to sleep.

At some point, our children are going to need to learn what the tiredness cues are, and how those are a good suggestion to move into bed and fall asleep, so why not start learning it young?

"In winter I get up at night
And dress by yellow candlelight.
In summer, quite the other way,
I have to go to bed by day."
Seemed crazy to R.L. Stevenson, seems crazy to me.

Yes, great if it works for you. As I say, for me unfortunately my ds would just get overtired and then be unable to sleep at all - he just wouldn't GET tired so it would be no good me instituting a 'go when you're tired' thing.

Actually thinking on it I do go to bed before I'm tired, practically every night; I don't get tired properly before about 1am if left to my own night-owl devices; however in this house we are up at 6am and that isn't actually enough sleep for me to keep well on. DS would be the same; however as the adult I know that he needs more sleep than that in order to thrive and develop to his full potential; that is not his responsibility as a 5 yr old.