Private school better value at primary or secondary?

[Getitdonet]

Hi all,
I have been thinking lately on the above question. If funds were not an issue I would prefer to send DC private all the way, however as it is, would it be better to do so for primary (pro is fees are lower) and then try to get into a grammer (although there is only 1 near to me and even then its more than a mile so more pressure to be in the top percentile) or grunt & sweat to afford the secondary??
I have felt that secondary school was where I would consider private for grades & whole roundedness of experience but the youngest just started pre-prep & I'm realy seeing the difference but atm I can't put both DC through primary and secondary and need to evaluate to see if I could which should I focus on.
Comments & experience v welcomed.

Personally, I think it's a waste of money in most cases for either. But that isn't what you asked.

If I was going to shell out for one or the other, I would pay for secondary.

There will always be some on MN that insist ‘bright children do well anywhere’ and that ‘state school plus’ (which is the local comp with tutoring essentially) is just as good but with just 28% of children getting above a grade 7 in state schools and 62% managing it in private schools, I’m not so sure. I’d be shelling out for secondary.

@BrambleRoses

There will always be some on MN that insist ‘bright children do well anywhere’ and that ‘state school plus’ (which is the local comp with tutoring essentially) is just as good but with just 28% of children getting above a grade 7 in state schools and 62% managing it in private schools, I’m not so sure. I’d be shelling out for secondary.

In my experience, bright children do do well anywhere. They don't always need tutoring either.

The demographics in state and private schools are totally different, so the comparison that you make is not really relevant. State educated kids from privileged socioeconomic backgrounds with highly engaged parents tend to do very well. Private schools just happen to be full of that demographic.

Gifted children do well anywhere, bright children don’t.

I don’t see how the comparison can’t be relevant, unless you think that rich children are just cleverer?

Following

State plus tutoring for primary. If they make the grammar - fab.
If not then send private for secondary.

We went for State Primary and Private Secondary. One of the DC did get offered a Grammar place but we picked the Private school based on a few factors, including the fact that the younger DC probably wouldn’t get into Grammar.
We did it that way because both dc got places at a really good State Primary but our catchment Secondary was very unsuitable for DD (older). DS might have been ok there but as his sister was Private we wanted to do the same for him and to be honest he probably needs the smaller classes and more motivational teaching than his sister did.
I think it’s risky going for Private Primary if Private Secondary isn’t going to be an option

If you can't do both, then go for secondary, but bear in mind that a state primary will not prepare children for entrance exams and you will need to either do that yourself or hire a tutor. It's not just a case of having a bright child. You need to know how the system works, how to prepare children for the type of exam questions they will encounter, and how to prepare them for an interview.

Good question! We have done both, so private from reception and intend to keep going through 6th form. There is usually an influx in year 3, and then again in year 5, so if you wanted to save money you could skip the pre-prep stage etc but you’ve already started so I imagine that would be hard

I think the most benefit is in secondary though - the community side to it where all the teachers really know your child and what motivates them; the extra-curricular opportunities and the general facilities. I am sure that lots of people will come and say they are just the same in state schools but that’s not my experience

It depends on how good the state provision is for each type.

If you have an amazing state primary option, I'd take it and keep saving for Secondary. They can still try for Grammar.

If you have good primary and secondary state options then (personally), I'd bank the money for tuition / extra curricular clubs etc instead

I saw Professor Sir Robert Winston comment on this on television a few years ago. He thought it was better to attend a private primary as that is the most important period to learn the skills and train a child's brain to work and focus - those skills then set them up for secondary school, so they listen/work/learn automatically. Rather than going to a private secondary and having missed out on the brain wiring that takes place up until 11 years old.
Of course this is a generalisation and depends on having engaged parents and/or good options for primary/ secondary.
But the premise is the same - if a child brain is trained and wired early, either by parents/tutors/school it pays off later.

@BrambleRoses

Gifted children do well anywhere, bright children don’t.

I don’t see how the comparison can’t be relevant, unless you think that rich children are just cleverer?

Whether we like it or not, socio-economic factors and parental engagement are the biggest determinants of outcomes for children.

Secondary. Although if you can afford it do both.

So if your parents are wealthy and engaged with your learning, that is the sole explanation as to why privately educated children are three times more likely to get grade 7 and above than their state counterparts?

I think there are a lot of children from reasonably comfortable backgrounds with engaged parents at state schools leaving with 6s and 5s which are fine but miss out those top grades.

I think there are a lot of children from reasonably comfortable backgrounds with engaged parents at state schools leaving with 6s and 5s which are fine but miss out those top grades

I agree with this. You can buy yourself success at a decent comp at A level with additional tutoring, but the difference is stark at GCSE. Lots of bright kids who weren’t pushed would sum up my experience at a relatively middle class, good (as per offstead) school. It’s not the fault of the teachers at all - too often they were trying to teach alongside dealing with disruption, 99% off which was low level stuff. Friends who have been to private schools say this just isn’t a thing there.

@BrambleRoses

There will always be some on MN that insist ‘bright children do well anywhere’ and that ‘state school plus’ (which is the local comp with tutoring essentially) is just as good but with just 28% of children getting above a grade 7 in state schools and 62% managing it in private schools, I’m not so sure. I’d be shelling out for secondary.

Wow really? Our state school results are much higher than that. The A level results for example are 55% A and A*.

Thank you all for your comments.
I already get the eldest extra lessons, I totally agree @Handholding587 there is a system & you only know what you know.

Also agree with @BrambleRoses on gifted vs bright. Bright kids need support & steering which is lacking in the local primary near me from what I can see.
The pickings are v slim for secondary in my catchment area so im more nervous about that hence why the debate on preparing her for it via private primary, but I am leaning on the secondary for the value its just so formative

@BrambleRoses

So if your parents are wealthy and engaged with your learning, that is the sole explanation as to why privately educated children are three times more likely to get grade 7 and above than their state counterparts?

I think there are a lot of children from reasonably comfortable backgrounds with engaged parents at state schools leaving with 6s and 5s which are fine but miss out those top grades.

Yeah, I do think it's mostly down to demographics. Of course, some kids will benefit from smaller class sizes etc. Others, especially those lacking in intrinsic motivation might benefit from the pushier environment in some private schools. However, I believe that the majority would do just as well in state schools.

Of course there are state school kids from comfortable backgrounds with engaged parents who only get 5s and 6s. Based on your own stats, these children exist in the private sector as well. Innate ability will always be a factor, as will learning difficulties etc. I just haven't seen any solid evidence that suggests that kids from comparable backgrounds do significantly better in the private sector.

I think a lot of the poorest kids probably would benefit significantly from what private schools have to offer, but they generally don't get those opportunities. The kids who end up in private are typically the ones who need it least.

@grassisgreen

I saw Professor Sir Robert Winston comment on this on television a few years ago. He thought it was better to attend a private primary as that is the most important period to learn the skills and train a child's brain to work and focus - those skills then set them up for secondary school, so they listen/work/learn automatically. Rather than going to a private secondary and having missed out on the brain wiring that takes place up until 11 years old. Of course this is a generalisation and depends on having engaged parents and/or good options for primary/ secondary. But the premise is the same - if a child brain is trained and wired early, either by parents/tutors/school it pays off later.

We've gone for private primary for exactly this reason. We want the motivation to work hard and do well to be instilled from the outset and I feared that they would be left to coast in state - particularly post covid where a lot of resources understandably need to be used for those that have struggled the most.

@BrambleRoses

There will always be some on MN that insist ‘bright children do well anywhere’ and that ‘state school plus’ (which is the local comp with tutoring essentially) is just as good but with just 28% of children getting above a grade 7 in state schools and 62% managing it in private schools, I’m not so sure. I’d be shelling out for secondary.

In my experience private schools are da so selective, they don’t want the kids that struggle money or not. Comprehensives take the lot.

We are doing private primary then hoping for grammar for secondary. That's what I had myself. I know it's the opposite of what most people seem to suggest but I think the early years are most important in establishing the foundations for learning, plus private primaries tend to coach children into passing 11 plus amazingly well, I know it's not right but it is the case.

You need to check with the private primary what exams they prepare for. If you're planning on grammar school at 11 then a school that prepares for common entrance at 13 is of limited use as the exams are so different.

It depends what your local state provision is like too.

I think the adjustment of moving from private primary to secondary state is more significant so for that reason would do private secondary.

Children need to develop the love of learning in primary and I think many state primaries can achieve this. Expectations and behaviour in secondary schools to gcses make a major difference to learning outcomes.

My friends children are bright, their parents are highly motivated (were teachers) but the provision in state due to funding is poor. Add in teacher shortages and disruptive classes then they are not achieving their potential.

We did state primary and then private secondary. We thought we could fill the gaps in primary, but things like A-level Chemistry would catch us out.

It’s been expensive, and better universities now have targets (unofficial quotas) fig how many private school children they will let in. So perhaps setting up good habits in primary would have been more strategic.

There are more than 3x as many primary schools in the UK compared to secondary schools. Which means you have a lot more choice of primary school and more chance of finding a decent one near you.

Also about half of secondary schools are academies compared to only a third of primary schools. So you have more chance of getting your child into a proper school at primary level whereas at secondary school you’re more likely to get stuck with an academy.

Since the likelihood is that you have a decent primary nearby but not a decent secondary, I would go private at secondary level.