Bottle/colic query for bottlefed newborn

[Pixieandpip]

Morning,
I have a 2week old newborn. Due to a stressful delivery breastfeeding never worked out for us, but I tried for the last week and half to combi feed by pumping and persevering at the breast.
Have since made the decision for the sanity for both of us to just bottle feed.
Due to the mix I had purchased nanobebe bottles.
But I find I really have to tip baby back to get all the milk out and he’s sounds very raspy on them. Can also really hear the gas in him when he drinks with these.
health visitor suggested using infacol before each feed.
Since he’s had this he’s certainly been trumping more and a little more settled.
However I almost feel like I’m drugging him and can’t see it being a long term solution (unless I’m wrong-please say!).
I’ve tried him on a Tommee Tippee bottle that is anti colic but he about drowns himself on the teat and ends up splurting a lot of milk out.
Is this a question of trying more bottles or just carry on with the infacol and hope he gets less colicky over time?
We’re booked in for a cranial osteopath in two weeks time as have been told that can help forcep babies and colic symptoms.

I really rate mam anti colic bottles

I would try a different brand. Tommee Tippee aren’t great, I used Nuk bottles but ordered slow flow teats on Amazon as they come with medium flow. Mam are good too and you can order size 0 teats.

Yeah like PP try a slower teat to see.of that helps! Also dont worry about infacol, its.not.absorbed by the baby and is very safe. The colic will get better in a few months x

Dr Brown bottles helped our very bad colic baby. He's now 15 so I hope they still do them.
Also aptimal formula and anti colic drops

I have a 3 week old, so still working things out, but we have changed to the mam bottles instead of tommee tipee ! I find them so much better. they are quite small (only
Take 6 ounces ) so i can feed her sat upright with the bottle horizontal and the teats stays full and she takes in less air :) they also have a special bottom which removes air to reduce the intake .. I’m not sure entirely how this works but it seems to help !

Dr brown bottles and infacol helped our little one, also keep baby upright with head back during the feed which helps with wind. Good luck. Time / age really helps too, just need to ride it out.

Lovely thanks all for being so helpful. Have some mam bottles coming off Amazon for tomorrow. Fingers crossed they give him some more relief and I’ll keep up the infacol 😊

www.babydoc.com.au/faq/colic-bore-your-baby-to-sleep/

Congratulations on the birth of your baby!
I have posted the above link because I think it gives a really good insight into babies. They are v misunderstood and it can be really overwhelming trying to figure a reason for their behavior when it is often simply because they are babies.
Have you read about the 4th trimester? Don't forget he hasn't had to use his gastric tract for 9 months - it's all new and he is getting used to it all.
Paced feeding is an interesting thing to google too.

Thank you. I had… but not read it like that before. That’s a really good article.

@MrsPatrickDempsey

https://www.babydoc.com.au/faq/colic-bore-your-baby-to-sleep/

Congratulations on the birth of your baby!
I have posted the above link because I think it gives a really good insight into babies. They are v misunderstood and it can be really overwhelming trying to figure a reason for their behavior when it is often simply because they are babies.
Have you read about the 4th trimester? Don't forget he hasn't had to use his gastric tract for 9 months - it's all new and he is getting used to it all.
Paced feeding is an interesting thing to google too.

Oh wow @MrsPatrickDempsey - we needed to read this this evening having just embarked on the use of infacol with our 4week old.

Thank you - what a fantastically intuitive and rather wonderful article.

@chippedchocolate

I am a midwife and a HV
I can't remember how I found this article but I think out of everything I have studied, this resounds with me the most. It described my DD and anecdotally, applies to so many babies I have seen. I am glad it helped. Makes so much sense.

The number of babies who are medicated without improving symptoms astounds me. We just don't understand the range of symptoms that are normal for babies. There is a tendency to think that something is always wrong and we can fix it when there isn't necessarily.

@MrsPatrickDempsey - thank you for sharing what you do, and thank you for all your hard work in helping us mums, old and new, to get through these first weeks! It's so interesting to now read about this "4th trimester" - I've not had a baby since our second born (now ten!), who was tongue tied and had awful, awful reflux - infacol, gripe water, swaying and patting all night, hot water bottles in the crib, you name it, I did it - and he's still a limpet to this day! Perhaps if I had just realised he simply needed cuddles and close contact I would have relaxed and he would have too. As it was, he was "diagnosed" lactose intolerant and 'allergic' to my breast milk (😮) at 4 months (he was ebf until that time....), and I literally had to feed him formula laced with cement to keep it down. With hindsight - and this article would have helped - I would have done things very differently. I suppose it's why it's taken four weeks of trying different methods to shift the wind in this little new newborn, but equally, I've not succumbed to any external pressures and I have quite simply enjoyed holding him and loving him and feeding him all day and all night (much to the disappointment of my mother who thinks I'm creating a rod for my own back. Fortunately both me and DP don't really care what she thinks this time around...)

The infacol this evening helped hugely with his farts and it really seemed like he shifted poo far more quickly - ie the farts were less numerous and far more productive, albeit he still had his "witching hour" which now seems totally reasonable - he was over stimulated according to the article you linked - ironically I've been taking him upstairs to our dimly lit bedroom by about 8pm each evening as otherwise he simply goes bananas, today we had a very late guest and baby just didn't like it very much (neither did we!!!)

Thank you again - and sorry @Pixieandpip for using your post to piggy back on!

@chippedchocolate
My mum was the same - telling me to let her air her lungs and that I fed her all the time!
At the end of the day babies are little mammals with immature brains - not small adults. They behave v primitively but we are pressured to think otherwise.
Sounds like you have got it completely sussed with your little one 😌

@MrsPatrickDempsey I thought I had it sorted and now we've got a little immature mammal who simply doesn't know what he wants. Breastfeeding is sooo hard. Infacol worked beautifully for about 24 hours and now we're back to a fussy baby.

Can I just ask one thing? Can an efficient feeder (when he wants to be!) drain a breast and get to the hind milk within 5-7mins?! I can get 90ml out of one breast in 10mins using a Spectra.

@chippedchocolate

The evidence about fore and hind milk isn't robust - ie there isn't anything definitive about whether a feed actually changes. It came about by observations of EBM when it has separated and it was thought that the feed changed but it hasn't been proven.
Go back to basics - weight gain, wet/dirty nappies etc. I would put my money on growth spurt/cluster feeding.
What is specifically do hard about BF for you at the moment? What exactly is he doing?
Your lactation sounds great

Honestly the fact you've replied has made me tearful. Thank you for clarifying that there's a lack of evidence around fore and hind - DC11 and DC10 have rare inherited blood condition making both gravely jaundice in early days. DC11 was in SCBU for 2 weeks so I was literally like Daisy the Cow pumping away and EBF - they would remove what he got from my breast via NG tube / measuring syringe, and top up with my expressed "hind" milk ("liquid gold") if he hadn't managed to feed enough for their liking. This went on 2 hourly for a fortnight so I have a feeling my anxiety is totally clouding my rational brain here. This newborn has a different DF so no inherited condition.

This one birth weight 7lb2, day 3 6lb8, day 10 7lb4, and judging by our dodgy home scales was 9lb2 last Monday. This however has not increased as we weighed again this evening and it still says 9lb2 - seeing GP Friday for 6week check on us both.

Wet and dirty nappies are numerous - although he hasn't been as wet today as he would usually be (has been dirty though).

His feeding can be amazing and he has ironically just "dream fed" for 7minutes without issue. I feel like he can drain a breast in that time. I have a very noticeable let down and the other breast initially always leaks in tandem with the feeding. However, during the day today we have given him infacol prior to a feed, he's fed for 1.5mins, then come off the latch and pawed, licked, screamed, grabbed, fish mouthed (opens and closes but no latch) around the nipples, pushed away, fists in mouth, you name it - he's fussed. I ended up expressing in order to keep up my supply but we haven't yet tried feeding him breast milk from the bottle today (he quickly drained a bottle of 120ml when he decided to do this a couple of days ago and we googled nursing strike....). I switch breasts and he has another minute or so before the whole rigmarole starts again and we both end up sobbing. The process takes about an hour by which time he really is fussing as he's so tired. When he does feed well, both breasts 7-13 mins each, he can sleep for 3.5/4 hours!

Right now he's feeding for about 3-5mins every hour 🤪

I realise I have so many worries which are not helping me think this through rationally - DC2 had awful reflux, and has lactose intolerance even now. Sadly, when I took him to the doctor when he was 4 months old I was told he was starving, and allergic to my breast milk. It was awful. I felt like such a failure. DC1 I had to early wean and formula feed as he was slow weight gain (as part of the condition). I just would like to be able to make breastfeeding work this time around and I guess I'm putting a lot of pressure on us both. 😳

I apologise for the repetition and am blaming sleep deprivation!

I've used Dr browns bottles with all 3 of mine. They are definitely the best bottles. The thing that most helped with my last baby (which I wish I'd known about for my first and second) was lactose free formula. I used colief drops for the first 2, whichever helped but not much and qere a pain in the arse. Lactose free milk was a god send. She's 11 months now and fine with lactose. Eats yogurts, cheese, drinks normal formula milk.

@chippedchocolate

He definitely sounds overtired; the fussing, pawing, 'I don't know what I want' type behavior.

I honestly think what you describe about BF sounds fine and normal. There isn't a set pattern to it and length of feed isn't an indication of anything really. Don't forget he will never empty or drain a breast - the physiology just doesn't work like that. I think it's more like turning a tap on - if he sucks, the milk flows.
The fussing is so hard because you never know if they are still actually hungry. This would be the time I would try a bottle top up or dummy and just see if it settles him.
Expressing can be tough and demanding. I don't think you need to worry too much at this stage as your supply will be established.
The 4th trimester is 12 weeks officially. There is pressure for things to 'settle' too soon in my opinion.
Take care.

However I almost feel like I’m drugging him Just thought I'd mention that Infacol isn't a drug of any sort. You're not drugging your baby at all. Infacol simply works by "defoaming" the milk in the bottle ( or in baby's tummy if you give it to them in their mouth before a feed). It simply works by acting on all the minuscule bubbles in milk which we can't see, and which turn into colic.It turns the tiny bubbles into one big bubble, which is burped by the baby and cancels any colic . So don't be concerned that Infacol is drugging baby - it just isn't. If you find Infacol helpful, by all means keep using it.

@MrsPatrickDempsey - thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Your insight is so helpful and your support is just what I needed to hear when on the brink of throwing in the towel.

What you say relieves the pressure enormously. That there is no set pattern and that the 4th trimester lasts 12 weeks is just a huge relief, thank you. I will lower my expectations of us both and try relaxing a little more. Knowing that he won't empty a breast is really helpful too - I was so worried that I had expressed it all out yesterday hence why he was fussing and wouldn't/ couldn't feed 😳

Genuine thanks for looking after us

It might be easier adding Dentinox to the feed rather than giving Infacol before