Struggling with 4yo disobedience

[Herald44]

Hi all. DS turned 4 a month ago. He has always been full on. He has a lot of personality and is very stubborn. Extremely smiley and giggly with a great sense of humour but also prone to an unbelievable tantrum and has been since he was about 2. He is just the full range of emotion, every day (and the day starts at 530am!)

I was expecting him to calm down around 4 because my eldest did - I know not all kids are the same but DD basically grew out of the toddler behaviour around her 4th birthday and immediately became more manageable. DS is the exact opposite.

He is really physical. Constantly running in the house, jumping on people, hugging unbelievably tightly so his face is pressing my face so much it's painful, wrestling etc. He is so loving but he just takes it to extremes so he hurts people a lot with his behaviour which is not usually outwardly aggressive (v rare for him to eg hit ) just carelessly physical. He doesn't seem to understand his own strength. He is 90th percentile for height and weight.

In addition to this, he does not listen AT ALL when told to stop doing something. This makes the above behaviour worse because I can be screaming at him that he's hurting me/ his sister and it is like he doesn't hear us. It isn't just in relation to the physical. He will not listen at all if told to stop doing something. So for example I was chopping veg earlier and he was reaching for the chopping board. I told him to take his hands away because I had a sharp knife but he just kept ok grabbing for the carrot on the chopping board and then when I nudged his hand out of the way he went round the other side. It is like this all day long. We have tried time out, no effect. He has had days where he has been in time out on an hourly basis. Tried taking toys, he doesn't care. Tried getting down on his level and explaining the importance of listening to someone saying stop, his eyes are darting everywhere, I can tell nothing of what I say is going in.

I'm getting really concerned as the behaviour is if anything escalating not improving. His preschool report said he is great with other kids, very bright and chatty, generally a pleasure but that he is repeatedly pushing the boundaries of the expected behaviour in the setting (I asked for details and they said eg running up and down inside, not helping tidy up during tidy up time, not being aware of other children and accidentally knocking younger kids over during play) and apparently when spoken to one on one it is clear he totally understands what the rules are and why they are there.

I need to get a handle on him before he starts school as I feel like I'm losing control. Does anyone have any tips to get his attention and rein him in a bit? I love him dearly but he is absolutely exhausting me at the moment!

Parenting classes
I did them as my youngest is asd - pre any diagnoses etc as camhs ask for you to try it and it was really good. I alter things for my youngest due to his asd but I used the techniques for my other 3 kids.

I did triple p so all very positive and worked well gives you insight into how you behave too, the things you say and do affect your child. We practise a calm household praise good, redirect bad and are consistent always. It’s exhausting but you need to redirect him and lay down expectations but I think, by the sounds of it some help would be needed - I was really affronted by parenting class suggestion (mum of 4 so other kids fine) however they were really good and I’m glad I did it! No 2 children are the same and I learned a lot about myself too. Many local authorities run them, either triple p or Solihull it’s worth looking into.

Triple P is good if your child is neurotypical. If your child is neurodiverse it won't work.

Set house rules. Short and clear one.

Explain consequences and follow through with them. Tantrums are inevitable while changing things around.

Praise good behaviour. All the time.

Both of our boys are/were like this. They do grow out of it! DS11 is now simply lovely to be around.

You need very firm boundaries. Do you have DP around for support?

If you say no you have to follow through. DS2 is 5y now and we've found the best way is to remove either him or what he wants from the situation. So, in your chopping board incident I would have put the knife away after my first "no" was ignored and led him out of the kitchen to the hallway (or other suitably boring place) to talk to him (eye-to-eye level) about the danger he was in and how I need him to listen in such situations. I would then hope to enlist DP to distract him with a more constructive task or set him up playing with something myself.

As for the physical behaviour, we try two things. Either gently holding him still by way of a firm cuddle until he is able calm down and understand that he is hurting me or someone else, or standing up and walking a distance away before telling him we don't want to be hurt so have moved away.

It's hard! It's not your fault, through, and you will get through it.

Thanks so much for all your advice everyone. Part of me feels sad at the thought of needing parenting classes but I do think you're right @Iamkmackered1979. I'll look into triple P and maybe research some other options too. I think that would be a great way to start the new year.

Thank you for the other really practical advice. I am determined to turn it around as at the moment I just feel like I'm completely failing him.

@user290814356289 I have always been sure he was neurotypical but in the last few months I have, to be honest, been concerned that some of his traits are not typical for his age. Such as

1. Makes noise ALL the time. Either a constant stream of chatter or just loud noises. So while eg getting dressed he will be hopping from foot to foot shouting "ah ah ah ah ah!" Or meowing like a cat at full volume while I'm trying to brush his teeth and often screams while he runs, for no reason at all. Any attempt to get him to calm down or quiet down he ignores but it's as if the request doesn't even get registered.
2. If you say no to him, he just cannot accept it. On the occasions I say no to him or redirect him and he accepts it I go overboard with praise but it happens so rarely that I don't think those instances of praise make any difference. This morning he asked for a selection box at 6am and he repeated 'please' and 'pretty please' for 45 minutes and he was lying on the floor screaming, kicking and crying before he finally gave in. Nothing distracted him.
3. My DH shouts quite a lot. He didn't used to, but we are having a very hard few months for other reasons, we are in survival mode, and its hard to articulate just how much the above behaviours are sending us to the edge. Very very occasionally DS will show signs of being upset that he has been shouted at. On those occasions he will recover in less than a minute and be back to the loud singing and animal noises. So shouting serves no purpose other than releasing our frustration, which we fully realise.
4. Falls over constantly and breaks things by accident all the time
5. Academically bright. Vocabulary really good, knows all his numbers up to 20 and can add and take 1, knows all his letters and can read basic words.
6. Makes friends really easily. Loves other kids and they tend to really like him. Rubbish at sharing though.

123 magic is a great book to read about disciplining this age group. It's got a good technique to follow but it's also got lots in it about how to talk to kids and get them to listen to you.

Following with interest op. It isn't just you

@Herald44

Good he can make friends but how is he at keeping friends? Does he understand non verbal social cues or does he continue with his play until one of them is upset?

From what you've said I would be looking into this a bit further.

How is memory, if you ask him to go upstairs and put his shoes on is he able to follow both those instructions?

Does he remember what he did at nursery/what he had for lunch/what he did yesterday (on a typical day)

Hmmm. I wouldn't say he was great at non verbal cues. Like if someone was looking sad about something he was doing? I don't think he would notice but if asked what eg a sad face meant he would be able to tell you and suggest why they might be sad. We don't have many issues with friendships to be honest but I think as he is in preschool his interactions are quite 'managed' and an adult would step in if he wasn't noticing cues. This is definitely something to ask his key worker about.

If I asked him to go upstairs and get his shoes he would ignore me until I had asked him at least 5 times. I would probably have to break it down in order for him to focus. I do literally everything for him or it takes ages (which I know isn't helping).

Never remembers what he did at preschool unless he comes out with the artwork or whatever. He is, however, excellent at things like memory games though can only focus on the game itself for a short time. We have a game where you have to memorise objects on cards and then swap them and see if you can remember what they were. I am terrible at it but be can rattle off the five objects after I've taken the cards away. My older daughter isn't as good at it as he is!

This thread has prompted me to do some reading online and I think he meets a lot of the traits of ADHD. I'm not sure if this is also a signpost for it but the biggest problem we have always had with him is he doesn't sleep. He is yet to sleep through the night, we are just about getting there now with usually only one wake up a night. But his max sleep time overnight is about 9.5 hours and that's including being awake for half an hour or so in the night.

My h has adhd and one of his biggest symptoms is terrible sleep

Interesting @girafferafferaffe! I don't know where to go with it really. Health visitor? All our extended family just think he's really naughty. DH is sceptical there is any issue as he points out he CAN behave. This is usually if taken out 1:1 with DH for an activity he enjoys. I don't think this is comparable but DH reckons to have any sort of diagnosis he would need to be the same in all situations. He may be right I have no idea?

I'd definitely approach the health visitor in the first instance. My h didn't get diagnosed until he was 32 and his life would have been infinitely different (better, imo) if he'd been diagnosed as a child. The HV can signpost you somewhere if it isn't them.

Are there ever any negative consequences for his behaviour?

For example the naughty step or losing a treat from the treat jar or he doesn’t get his daily good behaviour sticker or anything?

If not, then he won’t do what he is told. Why should he. I wouldn’t either.

However negative consequences don’t work with non neurotypical children.

Just wondering if youve tried and what happened?

I too would recommend triple P. We get it free here as the local authority picks up the tab.

There’s no shame in going. It shows that you are a great parent willing to do whatever you can to give your child the best start. The other attendees are there for the same reason. Nobody’s judging.

Thank you @girafferafferaffe I will look into it.
@Elieza We have tried various things. Naughty step worked when he was younger but hasn't really worked since he was 3. He will tantrum to the extreme, repeatedly get up and run off and most importantly once he's done his time it has no impact on the behaviour, as I said in the opening post he's had days when he was it almost on the hour so we stopped.
Putting toys on a high shelf to be earned back has been tried, he's not bothered and we would be in a situation where multiple toys were up there and no improvement in behaviour. Both this and naughty step always included a warning which was ignored every time so clearly wasnt that bothered about either consequence.
If he accidentally hurts eg sister we comfort sister and then one of us firmly explains why behaviour unacceptable and he is asked to apologise. He's never particularly bothered and apology is always rushed and not particularly sincere and he's dancing about within a moment unaffected by previous events.
We have tried positive rewards so we had a pom poms jar for a good while. Good behaviour resulted in pom pom. This was used for specific issues we were having such as behaviour in car, behaviour on school run (running off without listening, refusal to hold hands, running and shouting and not being aware of others at sisters school). Full jar got new toy. For really bad transgressions we removed. It sort of worked for a few weeks but effects wore off and he reverted to previous behaviours despite threat of lost pom poms. He is not in the slightest bothered about stickers. His behaviour seems impulsive. The need to do the behaviour seems to outweigh the interest in any reward or threat. Often the behaviour isn't with bad intent, it's just really really silly. He is definitely not just allowed to get away with bad behaviour.

We are currently in the car on the way to visit grandparents which I'm dreading. We've been in the car an hour and he has not stopped talking and singing and asking us when we will be there. If we try to speak to each other he plays up and starts poking sister or kicking the back of my seat or just screaming that he wants to get out. I've managed to write this post by giving him a banana. He cannot switch off at all and has been going since 5am. I don't understand why he isn't as exhausted as I am.

He sounds just like my 3 year old!! I just try and make sure I take him out for proper exercise for about 4 hours a day when I’m not working!

It sounds like he has some sensory needs. Google the vestibular and proprioceptive senses.

Definitely approach your health visitor.

I'm asking these questions because both myself and my son have adhd and autism and it sounds like there's something to look into here.

Unfortunately you will find assessment can take years and they don't typically diagnose adhd before the age of 6.

I'm not saying your son has adhd but I think it's something to look into.

Usual parenting tips and consequences for behaviour won't work if he has adhd. The way the brain processes situations is completely different to neurotypical kids/adults.

Hi OP,

Just here in (partial) solidarity. It sounds like there are some similarities between what you are going through and what we are going through.

Our son (3.5) is extremely hard to discipline. Can parrot what he isn't allowed to do but really doesn't care about rules, he will do what he likes and nothing seems to work - rewards/punishment/"gentle" discipline. He seems more or less unaffected by my DH shouting at him (we try not to shout but like yours my DH has been at the end of his tether with the behaviour). Awful, awful tantrums which have got much worse since he started pre-school in September.

Bright like your DS.

He does have friends like your son, similarly not amazing at sharing but also is shy and socially awkward with new people.

My DS doesn't have any of the physical/clumsiness/noise-making issues you refer to but we have been worried that there might be something wrong. But again like your DS, he is capable of behaving well and is much better on school holidays than when at pre-school which suggests it's not inherent (I think?). Answers on a postcard...