Toddlers needs not being met at pre-school?

[Quicksilver15]

Questions in the title I’m not sure if it’s my child or the setting he’s 24months & came home today, he hadn’t napped & was literally exhausted (sleeps 3hrs at home everyday), he had only eaten his banana at lunch (when I went in the room to collect he begged for food immediately) and then he had a huge accident at home as if he’d been holding his wee in most the day (no changes of clothes so no accidents there). So yeah he started 3 weeks ago but I don’t know if it’s just not a right fit for him or they aren’t checking in on a young child often enough or maybe he’s too young for entire days in this particular place.

I think you need to talk to the Nursery about this.

How was he with his settling in sessions ?
It is quite a change for little ones to start Nursery - much more so this year, as little ones haven't had the same experience of mixing as babies and toddlers would normally have had, due to the pandemic.

I mean 3 hours is an enormously long sleep to be having in the day - did you discuss this with them before he started?

Do you send in a packed lunch or do the Nursery serve them meals there? This is something you can talk through with them either way.

I don't think any of this is unresolvable, probably some mismatch of expectations which can be fairly easily sorted I should imagine

My two year sleeps three hours in the day, I don’t think that’s unusual, he gets up at 6am sleeps 12.30-3.30 and back in his cot at 7pm.

It doesn't sound ideal, but none of us.will be able to tell you what the problem is, you need to speak to the pre-school and go from there.

I work in a private nursery. You said that he doesn't nap and seems exhausted. I have definitely experienced this whilst working in my setting. A lot of children (especially new children) take a while to adjust to their surroundings, so it may take a little longer as children are so interested in everything that goes on around them! From experience, i have had a lot of parents express their concerns about napping etc. Does the nursery workers let you know? We would tend to make a phone call or message you through an app if they haven't napped etc.

With the food, i'm really surprised at this. I would assume that you filled out a form of his food preferences? Usually we would offer a something different if a child hasn't eaten their dinner. Whether that would be a sandwich etc but they would definitely be offered something else!! They should be communicating with you throughout the day!!

With him having an accident at home, it genuinely could be that he's either having a lot of fun and could possibly forget, but then they should be reminding him every now and then to go to the toilet. Especially if he is new!! Do you know if he has access to the toilet without an adult?

Maybe it would be a good idea to phone up during the day (if you're not already doing this) and asking how he is getting on. But i would definitely voice your concerns that you have!!

Three hours is a long nap - in a nursery setting other children will start to wake up and make noise so naturally he won’t be able to sleep as long. That’s to be expected.

Did he eat only a banana all day? If so that’s not great but I would be asking why. Maybe he refused other food, maybe he didn’t have time to eat. Worth asking and finding out, if he was rushed they may be able to let him have longer to eat.

Just turned two is very young to be potty trained, so occasional accidents are to be expected. And the accident happened at home rather than nursery so I don’t think you can really blame them for that - maybe you could take him before you leave/as soon as you arrive home.

shouldn't they be taking him to the toilet at that age.
leaving him to mange on his own once there, if poss, but seems a bit optimistic to just say, do you need the loo.
that's a lot of responsibility or such a young child.
i'd have thought they could take him by the hand into the loo area and ask him to try.

He moved from a nursery to a pre school, so he is used to the whole being away, I never felt like he got on amazing at nursery as staff changed too often & that clearly affected him but he definitely would sleep & eat a bit more there. It’s different though as he gets a packed lunch we supply now & naps aren’t part of the routine though I asks that he naps anyway but the staff are likely to be much more long term. Just not sure if it’s a case of he’s concealing his needs because even as a baby I know he ‘seemed’ very easy but that he would internalise his feelings or wants even if there was a problem it’s how my child copes with stress I think. I don’t mind shorter naps & was expecting that but had hoped he’d do something there but maybe it just won’t work. He’s only ever done 2 days a week at these places so at least it’s not full time I guess.

Why is he at pre school already? That’s probably the issue. The other children will be older and not need naps.

Maybe he’s just not ready for a pre-school setting. A preschool will probably be more geared towards 3-4 year olds getting ready to start school and most of them won’t be napping so if he’s reliant on a dark/quiet cot then he’s unlikely to get that there. Also 3 hours is much longer than average nap even the young toddler room at my DD’s daycare would wake them after 2 hours to go play outside. If you supply lunch and he refuses the food then I’m not sure what they’re supposed to do, except maybe call you in case you want to pick up early. Maybe you need to rethink what you’re putting in the lunchbox so it’s more tempting. But if you can change settings then nursery might be a better fit for now.

Pre-school settings are usually designed for children ages 3+, I'm presuming he's one of the youngest. IME preschools don't have a 'nap time' and usually don't facilitate napping at all anyway, or at least the pre-school room at DD's nursery doesn't and same with ones that my friends' kids go to. I'm not sure a pre-school setting would suit most just-turned-2 year olds. It would depend on the child - lots of children that age aren't napping anymore anyway, but obviously plenty are.

With food, again given its a pre-school setting and you provide a packed lunch I guess they are assuming independence in eating. If your child doesn't eat what you've provided, I can't see what they can do about that.

The toileting I think it would be reasonable to have a discussion about this. Does your child typically require promoting at home? In view of their relatively young age for being toilet trained I don't think it would be unreasonable to see if staff can suppoet them with some prompts etc. but equally one my DD was toilet trained (26m) although her nursery were very supportive and did always get her to go before nap time, the were up front about the fact that they didn't operate a policy of regularly prompting and would always rely on children either going independently or making staff aware they needed to go. I guess they just don't feel they have enough staff to be monitoring every toddlers toileting frequency which is fair enough given the ratios.

Ultimately if your child isn't independent enough yet for this setting - which would be the norm at 24m! - maybe he needs a different setting?

In under 2s, he would be in a 1:3 ratio and there would be an expectation that all the children need to be fed and need to be put down for naps.
It is very different in a place that is specifically called a pre-school.
Between 2 and 3 he should still be in a 1:4 ratio, but if it is marketed as pre-school there will be different expectations all round.
If it is a setting where you send in packed lunch, then that is the food that is available, they won't have a kitchen full of other foods to tempt him with, and, in a pre-school, I should imagine the routine / expectation is for that little bit more independence.
However, as I said originally, none of this is in any way insurmountable, it just needs some conversations between the staff and yourself to adjust expectations a little and perhaps highlight to them just how young he is, and that, at present you think he needs more support and direction than seems to have been happening.

They should be communicating with you throughout the day!!
They really shouldn't..... many people are at work whilst their children are in childcare. The carers should be qualified and either experienced or have an experienced person to talk to and should be trusted by parents to make decisions during the day, and then things should be discussed either at pick up or at a mutually arranged convenient time. Many (most?) people who are at work can't be chatting to their child's childcare providers all day.

Does he have to be in all day? Children that age are too young imho and benefit far more from one to one, years ago I worked in nurseries on a gap year. Obviously that isn't always possible re work etc so I would talk to the preschool, i would also always choose one where the people working there were not too young. Its so difficult for young dc as they can't express their needs easily, i would stress that they need to look out for his cues and needs more.

There's a big difference between 2 year olds than 3/4 year olds and often younger people working in settings like that don't get it. As a pp said the preschool setting might not be right for him.

I didn't think pre schools did naps?

So it’s technically called a playgroup but effectively has everyone up to age 4 in the same room, the 4 year olds do breakaway in the morning for actual pre school if that makes sense. The staff are much more experienced than his last place who were mostly agency and early twenty somethings and hopefully stable whereas the last place he kept getting a new key worker every few months & he definitely takes time to warm up to an adult so this also made him upset whenever they changed. But given the quantity of 2 year old currently in his place I can’t really understand why they don’t facilitate napping for all of the younger ones and I guess I was suprised that no one had tried to peel his orange or open his raisins or maybe he had just blankly said no but I’m not sure. I know his sleep needs are higher than normal but this is no way impacts on his 11 hour straight through night but I also had no problem with a reduced nap as he never managed 3hrs at his last place either but I hoped they’d at least get an hour out of him in the buggy in this new setting. Just seems like the perfect place to put young children doesn’t exist so maybe we will have to drop another afternoon so he just has one full day to manage with as at least then he won’t get so desperately hungry or tired!

Send the orange pre prepared because they have a lot of children to help with their lunches. I’m not sure why you’d think they’d put him in a buggy to sleep as that sounds unusual. My DD went to a preschool that sounds really similar and they took from kids 2.5 but in reality parents didn’t do full days until their kids had mostly dropped their naps- virtually no one seemed to use it as their primary childcare and most families had a SAHP or were using it in combination with a nanny or childminder. If you’re determined to stick with it then your plan of dropping another afternoon until he’s a bit older sounds wise.

The buggy is just what they said they’d do when we initially viewed it but also when he started. I mean he will happily sleep in a buggy, they don’t have a dedicated sleep area and move outside a lot so I guess the buggy means they can move around with him

There are others who use it for full time child care at age 2 as it does extended hours so it’s not like those really short day pre schools. Maybe I do need to rethink about full days & hope he keeps up this big nap for a while longer so I can manage it with work I was hoping this place would be less stressful for him but maybe it won’t be and I wasn’t realistic.

Do you need childcare to cover certain work hours, or could you change his hours to going 3 or 4 mornings rather than two full days ?
He could then come home and have lunch, and sleep.
I realise this only works if you are wfh or not woth, or you can be flexible when you do work, but would still give you a lot of hours when he is either at Nursery or asleep, and would give him a better routine of 'Nursery in the morning then lunch with Mummy then sleep' several days a week, rather than one or two long days which are ery different from his other 5 or 6 days ?

There's a place like that near me (all the different names are so confusing!) and like a PP it's mostly used by SAHP or those with greater flexibility in work hours. We looked at it for DD but I wanted full days and it just didn't seem suitable for her with the mix of ages and the size of the rooms. I think if she has been starting in the year prior to school it would have been fine because she's pretty independent now but not as a two year old. It's so frustrating trying to find the right place that works for them and you.

Id have a chat with her key worker about your concerns and see if you can do anything to make it a bit easier like different stuff in a packed lunch.

He does sound too young for preschool I reckon

I think the fact they don't have a dedicated sleep area tells you quite clearly that they're not a provision that typically has lots of barely 2 year olds who have lengthy day naps. It sounds like a setting aimed primarily at children who are 3/4, but some parents of children who are ready for that environment might opt to send their child there at 2.

Perhaps your DC would benefit more from a typical toddler provision rather than a small child getting prepared to go to school provision.

Though then you are faced with inconsistent carers we have found in the private nurseries, this seems an identical issue to other friends I have too who send their toddlers to nursery constant turnover at least in the south east, when I discussed with his previous nursery about the lack of staff continuity they said you’d only find continuity in a pre school type setting, but it’s the youngest ones that thrive better on continuity so it feels like it’s all the wrong way round. I think I’m just going to stop the afternoons & just manage somehow with mornings by adding in some extra mornings as I work from home. I’m sure I can survive as long as he keeps his nap up to some degree for a while longer. Then of course I’ll probably find I can’t increase his hours later because it’s too full, childcare round here is a nightmare!

I’ve worked in a mixed age playgroup type setting and it was fantastic - however I do think it only works with a smallish group where all children’s needs can be met. In the morning we would split up for ‘little circle time’ and ‘big circle time’ so it could be tailored to each child. After lunch we would have quiet nap time for small kids and outdoor play for big kids.

It sounds like this mixed setting is basically aimed at 3-4 year olds with smaller children expected to just muddle along and try to fit in with the preschoolers which isn’t great.

And yes I agree the staff turnover in nurseries is so difficult and can often lead to a really patchy experience for the children. I can’t exactly criticise since I quit working in nurseries too (hard job for bad wages) but I see where you’re coming from.