Curious- what's your opinion of this...

[TinselGrrrlWith2Boys]

I met a friend for coffee the other day, whose baby is a few weeks older than mine. She was trying to recall exactly how many weeks her DC was, so i asked if he'd had his 1st jab yet, thinking it would prompt her.

She said she wasn't giving him any vaccinations at all, and that her DD only had the 1st one. Her reason was that she felt her DD had 'changed' after her jab at 8wks, so she refused her any more, and won't give her new baby any either.

I didn't comment, but i was a bit shocked by that. I do feel babies seem to have a jab every month, as there are so many, but the thought of one of them getting sick / deaf or worse is scary.

my cousin was not vacinated, and caught whooping cough ,as a result is brain damaged.
This was when we were children, I can still remember her coughing as clear as if it was yesterday. Very scary.

I have also cared for a child who nearly died from chicken pox.
At 5 yrs old he recovered,( after a long time in intensive care) but had to re-learn everything over again, from talking/feeding/ to walking.

I have a aunt with a damged back , her mother caught TB when she was pregnant.

TB is on the rise in this country.

So is rickets. but thats another story and not vaccine related!!

You are correct fortyplus I am not medically qualified. I have, however spent the last three and a half years reading everything I can get my hands on that relates to vaccination, immune system dysfunction, vaccine damage, vaccine testing and trial procedure, vaccine development and manufacture, vaccine damge court cases and so on. I have also read as much as I can about childhood disease and how to responsibly raise an unvaccinated child.

I have done all this in order to help me nurse my eldest child back to health. I wanted to understand what had happened to her so that I could try to repair her damaged immune system. My reading had a purely practical aim in the beginning, now it has become more political.

I live in France where vaccination is mandatory. My child was damaged by a mandatory, government approved procedure. Her story is a long one but I'll briefly outline it.

She had a bad reaction to her first DTP vaccine, stupidly I allowed her doctor to give her the second at 4 months. She lost conciousness after vaccination and remained unconcious for 6 hours. She woke up a different child with a range of health problems including gut problems, insomnia, malabsorption, multiple food allergies and motor difficulties. She was in a lot of pain and cried a great deal. At 4 and a half months she was diagnosed failure to thrive. She was severely underweight and nearly died after a gastric infection. She is now four years old and still very under weight with allergies and painful gut problems. Physically she is way behind her peers.

The DTP vaccine that destroyed my daughter's health has since been withdrawn for being 'too reactive' and being shown to have a 'low efficacy rate'. The vaccine had a controversial history and my daughter was one of many who reacted badly to it. I wish I had known this before I allowed her to go through with what I naively assumed to be a low risk well tested routine procedure.

I am part of a group of parents of vaccine damaged children who campaign for vaccines to be better regulated and tested and for enough information about vaccines to be made available for people to make a proper informed choice. I mention the Nuremberg Code and Hippocratic Oath in previous posts as both place emphasis on informed consent. The information routinely given to people choosing whether or not to vaccinate is incomplete and sometimes downright untruthful. I take issue with that and do so using political terms as I believe this to be a political and not a public health issue.

Beachcomber I have to say that - whilst I personally believe that all healthy children should be immunised - I would be appalled at the idea that this should be mandatory.

I sent my boys to be immunised, accepting that there was a tiny risk to their health as a result of the procedure aimed to protect them.

If - like you - my children had been part of the tiny minority adversely affected by vaccination, then I dare say that my views might have been coloured by the experience.

"I sent my boys to be immunised, accepting that there was a tiny risk to their health as a result of the procedure aimed to protect them."

The reality of living with that is awful though, utterly, utterly awful.

Beachcomber You might like to read Calling the Shots y Mary Alexander- (published by Jessica Kingsley). She has a kind of similar story. Her dd reacted to men C- she started having frequent seizures which commenced within hours of the jab. She has managed to nurse he dd back to health (apparently) over the period of years, but she's left with the same sorts of dilemmas as the rest of us.

Of course I would love to be able to vaccinate my younger 2. It would be fantastic to believe that they couldn't catch x, y and z (although I think that would be a little bit of misplaced trust, but still). I would love to be able to have that reassurance. But I can't. I can hear them now as I type this arguing and joking together, that's something that ds1 will never be able to do. I can't give any vaccination without practically tearing myself in half about it. So for the moment they remain totally unvaccinated (but as they're country kids I do keep an eye open for single tetanus- until then we live with the risk- which incidentally I don't underestimate).

The thing is though fortyplus that there are high numbers of children who are badly affected by vaccination. You speak of a 'tiny minority' but on the basis of what exactly? Do you have figures to back this assertion up?

Currently there are serious questions over how vaccination affects the human immune system and adverse events have been linked to a rather worrying series of chronic conditions. I'm not going to go into detail here as the information is out there for anyone who really wants to find out and I believe that one has to find out for oneself (hopefully not by sacrificing a child to vaccine damage).

I do not believe that only a tiny minority of children are adversely affected by vaccination, I just believe that only a minority realise the effect or have that effect recognised. I fought for two years to have my daughter's condition officialy recognised as vaccine damage whilst I know she is in no way a precedenting case. Why should this battle be fought over and over again by parents when in fact the manufacturers know, and indeed accept, that these cases are far from being a tiny minority.

By suggesting that a case like my daughter's is exceptional one is denying the reality of the situation whilst suggesting that 'for the greater good' some children must suffer and indeed are negligible. Sorry, not good enough in this day and age.

I think vaccination sounds like a wonderful idea in theory, but my study of the effects in practice has led me to be cautious of the whole concept.

My opinion is coloured by my devastating personal experience but my views have been formed through thorough reading and examination of thousands of cases of vaccine damage.

Vaccination may not be mandatory in the UK but immense pressure is put on parents to unquestioningly vaccinate their children. Talk of 'herd immunity' is part of this construct of pressure by suggesting that one is being irresponsible towards others by not vaccinating.

I refer agin to the Hippocratic Oath in its modern form;

"To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority. There may be other conflicting 'good purposes,' such as community welfare, conserving economic resources, supporting the criminal justice system, or simply making money for the physician or his employer that provide recurring challenges to physicians."

Community welfare and herd immunity are exchangeable terms.

Vaccination is not black and white and should not be presented as such.

Thanks yurt1 I will look that book up. I'm so sorry to hear of your experience but am also glad to have this exhange with you as it helps so much to 'connect' with others who have gone through a similar experience. I wish we were the only ones but I know that is not the case.

Of course I don't have figures to back it up - I can only say that - of all the hundreds of children I have come across over many years at my children's schools I have yet to meet anyone who claims that their child is vaccine damaged.

I know of a child who died of Meningitis, one who died from heart problems, two who have Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, several with various other problems including Autism, but not one that a parent says is vaccine damaged.

That doesn't stop my heart going out to you and Yurt and your children. The consequences for those who are damaged are clearly horrific.

my mother has a colleague whose child ws given poli drops at two year old, he is completly paralysed now. no one is taking responsibility for it.
this is in the third world however, so not uk based.
my dsis chose to have her baby in the third world, and he has had loads of jabs already. including a bcg at two weeks. both of us feel we would much much rather our children have the jabs that will protect our babies.
in t he uk, there is a great deal of herd immiunity. many people dont think about that.

I think if you read the thread you will find that a lot of people think about that...

I am concerned at the poster who cannot get tetanus shots for her DC without other vaccinations. I thought that tetanus shots could be given separately as in my younger days they were fairly routinely given if you had a dirty cut or puncture wound and had last been vaccinated against tetanus more than 5 years previously. I had a tetanus vaccination along with a few others 7 years ago (for a trip abroad, separate injections).

And my DS has had all his vaccinations. I read about it, thought about it and made a risk assessment which came down in favour of vaccination, which I believe to be a similar mark of civilisation to antisepsis and plumbing.

Thank you for your kind words fortyplus.

Vaccine damage has links with a long list of conditions. Most of us tend to think of adverse events in terms of collpase, fits, inflammation and so on at the time of vaccination. However some types of damage develop over weeks or months (possibly even years) making it unlikely for parents to connect a problem with vaccination. If my daughter had not actually lost consciousness at the time of vaccination, I'm not sure that I would ever have connected her ill health with the shots she had. I almost certainly would never had made the connection for the simple reason that no information had been made available to me which described this type of (not uncommon) reaction. My daughter's symptoms were as follows; eczema, bloody stools, fever, weight loss, joint pain, swollen lymph nodes, insomnia, increased crying and gut pain. Only one of these is listed on the package insert as an adverse effect (fever). Even though my daughter collapsed after vaccination, doctors tried to convince me that all the other health problems were completely unrelated to the vaccine. I even believed them in the beginning and it wasn't until I did my own months of research that I found out that vaccine damage manifests itself in many ways.

Studies have linked vaccine damage to many chronic health problems and so far the defenders of vaccination have failed to produce convincing, impartial counter studies which could rule out these links. Vaccine manufacturers are much critisised for their inadequate safety testing and lack of long term follow up. Currently despite denying any link between vaccination and the increase in chronic health problems such as asthma, allergies, ASD, ADHD,MS, ME, CFS, diabetes, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis and so on, vaccine defenders have no alternative explanation for the dramatic rise in these conditions. They also seem very reluctant to conduct further investigation into these issues even though current clinical evidence shows that it is well overdue.

You say that you have never come across a vaccine damaged child. However if vaccination is a factor in say the increase in incidence of asthma and allergies then the chances are that you have come across a child who has been affected by vaccination, you just didn't know it.

My daughter is officaly vaccine damaged but none of the parents at her school are aware of it. Some of them know that she has allergies and carries an epipen but none of them know why. I don't talk about it because nobody wants to know and people tend to think it is crazy talk. A few people know that DD2 is completely unvaccinated and they tend to assume that I have made an illinformed irresponsible decision based on some hippy dippy whim.

madamez- it was possible until the 5 in 1 was introduced. But the DT contained thimerosal. Since the introduction of the 5 in 1 it has not been possible to have paediatric DT separately. They couldn't give that one because thimerosal is no longer allowed in routine paediatric jabs - although guess what- yep ds1 had it.

fortyplus - you might not come across them because they're at SLD/PMLD schools (along with children who have been damaged by things like meningitis- there is no easy answer).

Something that interests me is the idea that if we were in the developing world we'd be grateful for vaccinations. The truth is people get pissed off by vaccine damage wherever they live here and here

BEachcomber: the trouble with ascribing a vast number of health problems in later life to vaccine damage is that it's nigh on impossible to prove that they were caused by vaccines and not by bad diet, exposure to other chemicals in childhood, genetics or being ill-wished by bad fairies at the christening. This is not to say that vaccine damage never occurs: I am perfectly prepared to believe that in a minority of tragic cases adverse and severe reactions do happen. However I still maintain that the odds are in favour of vaccination.

Yurt1: sodo they no longer give tetanus booster shots when young children get puncture wounds? Is there an age limit or something?

Well they don't like to give more than a certain number of tetanus shots in a lifetime- but it has been like that for ages. I remember when I was working with wild animals in 1993 and I tried to get a preventative booster after 9 years (in case of bites) and they insisted I wait until 10 years. The incidence of allergic reactions increases with number of boosters which is why they don't routinely give booster unless you can show it was more than 10 years since your last one.

If a child needs a tetanus for whatever reason they give the 5 in 1. But they wouldn't give a booster to an under 10 as it would be less than 10 years since the booster. Post 10 there is a DT available. No idea whether it contains thimerosal- but it is a different DT than the original paediatric alternative for those not having pertussis

madamez- regarding the vaccine damage- the problem is that a child can have their first ever seizure (not febrile) within hours of a vaccination, can go onto have many and you'll still be told it is nothing to do with it. I know children who developed encephalitis following MMR- nothing to do with it apparently- it's not even considered.... What is the most likely explanation?

Mind you I also know a child who aged 9 is in nappies, unable to speak etc etc - the usual stuff and he had a massive seizure following MMR and his paediatrician has said (unofficially) it was almost certainly MMR damage. TBH I have been stunned how quietly supportive health professionals have been of our decision not to vaccinate ds2 and ds3. I didn't expect them to be.

Yurt: thanks for the info on tetanus vaccinations. I do accept that vaccine damage can occur and FWIW think you were absolutely right not to vaccinate your ds2 given the vaccine damage to your other child: it would seem to indicate a much higher risk of vaccine damage to your children than normal. I chose to have my DS vaccinated because my assessment of the risk was that there was more of a chance of damage from catching an illness (an aunt of mine lost the sight in one eye from measles) than damage from the vaccination - and nothing is without risk.

That was the risk assessment I made with ds1. Actually to be honest I didn't make any sort of risk assessment I assumed it was a no-brainer- especially with a mother deaf in one ear from measles. But tbh now I'd rather take one deaf ear/one blind eye 100 times over than what ds1 has to live with. I know that sounds trite as actually I want my children to grow to adulthood completely intact without having to experience anything awful. We keep vitamin A in the fridge in case of measles exposure.....

Yurt: I am sorry for you and your DS. You did make a reasonable risk assessment, you didn't do anything 'wrong' when you had him vaccinated. Risk is just that, risk, and sometimes the bad shit happens.

I have not had my childen vaccinated although I would consider vaccinating them against polio if my GP can get us a polio vaccine by itself. I don't tell many people that my DCs are not vacinated because they tend to assume I am irresponsible. I think it is far more irresponsible to assume your DCs are 'covered' and not bother to learn about the symtoms of the different diseases. We had a talk at DD1s nursery about meningitis. Of about 100 families only a handful of people showed up. The others obviously didn't think they needed to know what the warnings signs of meningitis are. They think their DCs are covered yet they don't even realise that the jab would need to be given every 6 months to maintain protection and that a jab for MenC, the most dangerous type, has yet to be developed. Sorry if my facts are off, it's a while since I got up to date on this, but you can be sure it was an informed decision I made at the time. Anyone who wants more info could look here:
www.jabs.org.uk/

yurt - which vaccine was it that caused your ds to be autistic?