Musical instruments - how young is old enough?

[TataMamma]

Now my DD is almost 11 months, so I'm aware this is not for a while!
I never learnt an instrument as a child and I really want my kids to have this opportunity. I'd always thought of starting with piano at maybe 4 and then - if they wanted to - learning another instrument of their choosing (but not drums or harp lol) around 3 or 4 years later.
When did your lo start lessons? I was thinking individual lessons, because I don't see that you can learn much in group ones. I've read recently of some starting at 3. Obviously I'll have to play it by ear (!) a bit in terms of how my DD is at each age, but any general recommendations? I'd like to start as soon as possible, but don't want to pay/organise/have things when she is too young, not least because it will probably backfire!

The Suzuki method needs a lot of input from parents so if you are keen to be really involved that might suit. Children can start from about three on violin. You can get tiny violins so this is possible. Other than that, most teachers start accepting pupils about age 7. Lots of other instruments come in smaller/ lighter versions to start earlier nowadays. Look up pbone for a plastic trombone, tenoroon for a mini bassoon, mini bass for tiny double basses. Piano is good as you can see the notes laid out and the note always sounds correctly ie with a clarinet for example you only get the note if you blow correctly, lots of squeaking is common at the start. Recorder is another good one once their fingers can comfortably cover the holes without leaks. You could teach you and your child this together with some good books and videos. It's a lovely instrument when played well but is also a good intro to learning other wind instruments.
At nearly one, I would focus on singing and dancing a lot at home, with a toddler/ baby class if you fancy it. Listen to lots of styles of music, classical, jazz, folk etc and see what your DC enjoys. Scala radio is a good station to try if you're not sure where to start with classical, it's quite accessible. Get them out to live concerts as soon as possible, most big professional and some amateur orchestras will do family concerts where the pieces are shorter but still dramatic. They often include a commentary or a chance to meet musicians and see instruments. Nothing beats live music.
In terms of starting younger, you would need to discuss that with a teacher. Our teacher does 15 piano lessons to start with, with lots of singing and games as well, that eases them and if they enjoy it, they then do the normal 30 mins. Establishing a practice routine is easier when they are younger and have less on. There is a music thread on the extra curricular board you can ask any questions, there are loads of parents with kids at every level, they all started as beginners.

Wow @Kerberos that’s an amazing service you have going on there. Ours is nowhere near that: they try but it’s very hit and miss according to what school and limited in terms of choice of instruments.
Would you mind saying which authority you are in?

I started piano at 5 but was reading at 7 year old level so was ready to learn music reading really.

Started with half hour lessons which were a much singing and piano and then slowly transitioned to mostly piano.

I really loved it but Mum couldn't afford it for more than a year so I ended up being very stop start which I then struggled with. I can still play a little but would've benefited from consistent lessons and a piano to practice on at home as I only had a keyboard and they're pretty different.

Another one marvelling at Kerberos' LA! How amazing.

I started piano at 3 (learned to read at 2) but my hands were too small, so it was shelved until I was 5, though I was taught to read treble and bass clefs in the meantime. 2 instrument I didn't start until 8(needed adult teeth), 3rd instrument at 11.
My lessons were free and at home though, as my mother was a music teacher.
My children both began piano around 7, 2nd instrument in Y3, 3rd instrument for DD at 11, DS at 9 (mainly because he was desperate to drop the 2nd!).
The reason for other instruments is for ensemble playing- this will teach them so much about listening, waiting, timing, working with others; group playing is invaluable, and the piano usually doesn't present group opportunities until the child reaches a decent level of playing which may take many years depending on their dedication/interest. Learning to listen, in particular, benefits all areas of their learning, not just musicianship.

@Igneo

Wow *@Kerberos* that’s an amazing service you have going on there. Ours is nowhere near that: they try but it’s very hit and miss according to what school and limited in terms of choice of instruments. Would you mind saying which authority you are in?

Hampshire, under their local music service.

I have to admit I am a HUGE fan of the Hampshire music service. They give so much opportunity for the kids to learn and play music together.

My four year old does piano lessons in reception. I don't think she's learning much (!) but it gets her out of class andto do something different with some one-on-one time which I think she appreciates.

My older one started clarinet at six (his request) - I'd say he's progressing a lot faster than her but to me it's not about grades, just having something else to enjoy doing iyswim?

I'd never even heard of Suzuki, so that's really useful to know.
I live in London, Lewisham, so lots of opportunities if you pay, but having looked up the Council services they delegate everything to a charity and then it's a question of what individual schools sign up to. It's good to know that's a question to ask when thinking about schools, although I'm not there yet.
I do defo want them to learn an orchestral instrument, preferably either one used a lot(eg violin) or very rare (eg horn) so there's lots of opportunities. I have friends who play the flute who bemoan the fact that orchestra's never need one; another friend plays the bassoon and is always in demand even tho' by his own admission he's terrible :).

(And very impressed with your reading ability @eroica!)

My eldest is in year one. In reception the whole class did cello/violin once a week as a group. In year one we pay £30 for the year if we want to continue - I think there are 11 of them now having a group lesson once a week. We’ve also started individual piano lessons - his teacher takes them from age 5. He is so far really enjoying it and can do independent practice for 5 minutes a day.

Dd started an instrument aged 6. Her teacher normally does 30 min lessons but offered to do 20 mins for £5 less than the normal rate because he didn't think a 6 yr old would focus for longer (he was right!). 12 months on she is thoroughly enjoying the lessons and practises most days voluntarily for about 10-15 mins sometimes with a bit if help from me. This seems to be plenty for her age and she is making great progress. Most importantly she is really enjoying it.

have a look at junior music school (canary wharf) - the drama&sensory course is aimed at preschoolers.

DH is a music teacher (strings, mainly cello but also violin). He is a massive advocate of not starting too early and thinks the recorder throughout primary is a brilliant start as it gives you the basics of reading music and getting rhythm.

Also, choose carefully - violin in the hands of a beginner is the worst noise ever (I speak from bitter experience as one whose house of often full of the sound of a cat being disemboweled) the cello is more forgiving and you can get quarter size ones. Brass is loud but much easier to get on with quicker and once you’ve learnt one you’ve learnt them all (except French horn and trombone). Flutes are the work of the devil and even with adults sound horrific unless played to a very high standard!

Don’t worry about formal lessons just now, OP. Get your little one having fun with musical toys, and nursery rhymes/songs.
My DDs had a toy xylophone, and could play ‘Twinkle twinkle little star’ on it at age 2.
I got them an electronic keyboard at 3, which had smaller width keys for child fingers, and they were soon picking out tunes like the Postman Pat theme by ear.
I started formal piano lessons at 4. DD1 enjoyed them, and by senior school was composing and playing her own music. DD2 didn’t take to piano, briefly had guitar lessons, but then gave up altogether.
I think it depends on each child’s own interests whether they will enjoy/progress with an instrument. DD2 has been much keener on outdoor activities and is now a keen Munro bagger, kayaker, and runner.
Your role is to offer a good variety of musical experiences and let them develop as they wish.

As a music teacher I think 7 is a good average age to start. Plenty can and do start younger but that’s child dependant. My 4 year old is nowhere near ready to try an instrument because he can’t stand still and has poor fine motor skills. He’s very clever and I think he’s musical but he’s not physical ready. We sing and dance and enjoy music which is the best foundations for learning. Those who start at 7 catch up with the ones who started at 4 surprisingly quickly.

They started singing in choirs from about 6 and started instrumental learning at 7 or so.
Both my children are tolerably musical. DS1 is studying piano at conservatoire (currently at Royal Antwerp conservatiore on Erasmus). DS2 has just been offered a place at Oxford to read music with an organ acholarship.
Not convinced that formal lessons aged 4 or 5 are particularly useful.

One note (with aplogies for the pun) about school recorder lessons though. These lessons are often taught by people with no understanding of the instrument and little or no formal musical training.
When DS1 tried this at school aged about 5 we came to the conclusion that he didn't have a musical bone in his body

It is good to learn the piano when small with flexible brain connections. I started learning too late and have never really internalised the gap between notes - I know what I should be playing but constantly have to look down from the music to see where the note is on the piano. Very frustrating! If you learn it when young, then you can get this programmed in and it stays with you.

Physically - their hands need to be big enough, and they need a certain level of co-ordination.

Mentally - they need to be able to concentrate for more than a split second, and moreover, they actually have to want to do it. If they don't, you are on a hiding to nothing.

Don't get me going on the absence of music in schools ......... !!! Makes me mad! Music is the only truly international language that exists and most children leave school totally ignorant of it.

I am governor at a village primary school and have nagged and nagged about this. And now every child from the very youngest to the oldest starts the day playing an instrument - ocarina for the tinies and recorder for the others. They play from music which is up on the white board. So they all learn to read music.

And we have lots of schemes going with teachers coming in to teach strings, woodwind, banjo etc.

If a tiny village school can do this, then all schools should be.

I will hop off my soapbox now!

Recorder is a good start for anything like saxophone, clarinet, flute etc. Little kids can do this.

A lot of the kids who are really brilliant start very young.

Posters are on here saying start at 7/8 but I know a child who had their grade 5 violin by the time they entered year 3. I know another brilliant child whose parents are both music teachers and again, by 7/8 she was highly proficient and has performed loads, even in public.

@Mischance
When I decide which school to send her to, I'll pm you so you can become a governor.
Seriously, I HATED the recorder in school. I didn't see it as a proper instrument, and it was impossible for the (ordinary) class teacher to teach - some kids could read music already and played a couple of instruments, others were like me lol. I am wary of relying on school recorders as a way of getting kids into music playing - frankly it put me off a lot, and I'd rather start on a "proper" instrument (any kind, within reason), and do private lessons before the school can ruin it with their recorders!

Toddler music lessons are brilliant. They don't teach instruments (unless you count a scarf or rattle as an instrument), but they embed early listening skills. Continuing this through the preschool years helps to form a basis for early language and phonics skills as children learn about pitch, tone, speed and volume.

DS started teaching himself the piano using an app when he was around 7 or 8. He learned to read music and can sight read brilliantly. We've never paid for lessons as he adores teaching himself from the app and choosing what he wants to play. He plays for enjoyment and a structured lesson might spoil that.

His school offered woodwind lessons from Y4 and he has continued with these and now plays in an orchestra.

Haha- again down to my mother, who wanted me to be able to entertain myself when my sibling arrived...

@eroica
Ah, DD2 is due when DD1 is 14 months, so I'd better get teaching her reading now!

I second the recommendations for Kodaly type programs; it's brilliant for ear training and aural skills and helps lots with learning an instrument later. Also Suzuki is good for the little ones, though I personally would prefer standard lessons from about age 6 or so, less emphasis on rote and more on reading music, but many people love the Suzuki system and it has lots of benefits as well. I would definitely go for private lessons by 6 or so, as there is so much about posture and positioning that can make a real difference, and bad habits can get ingrained.

Children who start a bit older might well catch up in terms of ability, but it doesn't mean that time or money is wasted on the younger children if they enjoy it at the time! Also getting confidence, muscle memory, enjoyment of performing etc can help.

And the children who are slightly more advanced at younger ages then seem to get more opportunities to do things - chosen for orchestra or in higher level groups or to play solos or whatever - and that they feeds on itself and they become better, more enthusiastic etc, not because they're necessarily more talented, but just being better at the younger ages can sometimes bring opportunities that are less available to children at the same level who are older.

A really good choir is fantastic for later musical training, if you can find a good children's choir or church choir. You don't have to be at all religious. It helps them learn to listen well for tuning and hold a part and understand basic harmony, rhythm, following a conductor etc. And can expose them to good music early. Playing lots of music in the house all the time is also helpful, so it just becomes familiar - classical, folk, nursery rhymes, carols, anything.

There are lots of concerts by orchestras for children that introduce lots of different instruments, and children can get a feeling for the sound that they like, to help them choose which they want to learn later.

Piano is great if they seem to have good co-ordination, as it does help learning harmony and understanding theory later too, but some children find that learning single-line instruments is easier to start with if they are struggling. I'd personally go for cello as the second instrument, but it depends so much on the sound the child likes! (I like the lower sound for strings, not so screechy, and cellos still get good tunes as well as nice bass lines in orcehstras, or it can lead to bass, which can be in all sorts of ensembles and styles). Don't write off harp though, as you can always get a small harp and go right up to grade 8+ on it these days, nowhere near as expensive or big as the ones you might be thinking of!!