4 year old behaviour...please advise/help

[AMalTiempoBuenaCara]

Posting on here for a bit of advice/support/is this normal? type questions.

My 4 year old DD (5 in January) is causing me a load of stress and I am struggling to see the wood from the trees. She has an older sister (7) who was not like this at 4/5. my 4 year old has an underlying genetic condition which for which ASD and ADHD traits are quite common, but she has no diagnosis and has never been assessed as she is 'getting on fine' in nursery etc. Sometimes I wonder if there is something going on, but sometimes I just feel like I am a crap parent. She takes up all my energy and the poor older DD barely gets a look in sometimes. We have had a shocker of a day today and I feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells with her.

she was a bit under the weather yesterday, but today she has been much brighter. I suggested we go to the park (less than 5 min walk for little legs). She barely made it out of the house without starting to cry saying she was hungry and wanted a carry. I explained we had just had a snack and if she was too tired to walk we shouldn't go to the park. She miraculously found her walking legs and we got there without issue and had a nice time for 20 mins. She then kept wanting to go on this climbing frame probably intended for children twice her age. I can facilitate to a point but she is heavy and it was hurting to lift her. So I explained to her that I couldn't lift her any more as it was hurting me and she just flew into this huge rage, screaming and stamping her feet.

She eventually ended up rolling around on the floor. Screaming. I sat down next to her, but didn't really speak. Then she started to yell for a cuddle. I moved closer and tried to pick her up but she kicked out at me. So I told her she could come to me for a cuddle when she was ready, but this just enraged her more.

Eventually she came for a cuddle and calmed, but then I said we needed to go, which set her off again. She demanded to be carried. Again I explained it hurts me to carry her and she would need to walk.

I ended up having to pick her up to remove her from the park just because I couldn't leave her there, everyone was staring and I didn't have any more energy. I got out of the park and cried.

She then cried more and when we got home I took her up to her bedroom and she screamed and kicked about for a while before calming down and coming for lunch. I removed TV as a consequence and explained why.

I just feel like I am always on the back foot with her. She is very rigid in terms of what she wants to do and I find her hard to distract with something else. I hate "giving in" to her by carrying her about as I feel she needs to understand that it is difficult for me and I don't want to be bossed about by her.

So what would you do? What could I try next time? Any good websites or books for this kind of behaviour?

Thing is...she's 4. "explaining" that you can't pick her up to reach the bars won't make her think "Ah! I understand...that's fine then"

Same with any explaining really.

Yes, some 4 year olds have more impulse control but many don't. And if she's been under the weather then her temper will fray more easily.

She may just be sensitive...and a bit immature.

If she's sociable, making friends and learning on target I wouldn't worry about ASD at the moment.

Obviously keep an eye out as girls do mask it more successfully than boys do.

Does she show any sensory issues? Disliking certain noises or textures for example?

Honestly when mine go through a phase like this they lose a tooth a few days later, even now and my youngest is 10.

What was removing the TV a consequence for? I personally would not remove TV as that's actually a punishment for you as well as her. If it was for screaming around in her room, you could have just left her to it. After all, emotions are not to be punished and as long as she is safe you don't need to stand there and listen to the screams.

I know it is hard and I don't think you are necessarily doing anything wrong but maybe for now 20 mins is the magic time period for activities, and also maybe laying out a plan for her would help eg 'we will play in the playground for 20 minutes, then we'll play hopscotch, then we'll get a cup of tea, then we'll come home' and keep reminding her and telling her about each phase. My youngest is similar and she doesn't cope well with sudden endings or trips she didn't know was going to happen.

Sorry horrible grammar at the end there. Popped back to say 4 is a horrible age too.

Thank you both.

The TV consequence was just for the screaming in general at the park and at home. I do the whole naming feelings with her (e.g. "I can see you are really angry that mummy can't help you on the climbing frame") but it doesn't seem to work. You're right though I shouldn't punish the emotions. I did leave her too it in her bedroom.

Yes, maybe 20 minutes should be the limit. It's just a bit rubbish for her older sister who's fun always seems to be dictated by the younger sister.

I felt that explaining that something hurt me was quite simple and I would expect her to understand at this age that we shouldn't do things that hurt others, but maybe my expectations are too high. She definitely does come across as quite immature in terms of her play and speech sometimes.

I think you not wanting to do it is enough anyway; she doesn't need to understand that it hurts. Did you warn her that you would do it one more (or two or whatever) time and then you would stop or did you just stop?

What would happen if you said 'we're going now' and left? Have you tried it? Does she follow? I know most will but not all.

It is a shame for your 7 year old but perhaps you can arrange it so you can do something separately with her or she goes with a friend. Even 20 minutes when the smaller one is in bed would help her feel better about it I'm sure.

I like How to Talk so Little Kids Will Listen as a book.

My DS is 4.5 and also has SEND and a genetic condition associated with ADHD and ASD (maybe the same one?). We do a lot of 'signposting' around transitions eg 'two more goes on the slide and then we need to leave' and also lots of 'now and next' and 'visual timers'. We also try to pick our battles but that is easier when you don't have to consider the needs of another DC.

Lots of cuddles to reconnect and tomorrow is another day!

Yes I gave her a warning that I would do it one last time, then we did something else, then she went back to the climbing frame and asked again and I said no.

I also tried to leave and walked about 50 yards to the gate. She stood there screaming and sobbing and all the other mums just looked at me! It is definitely a battle of wills sometimes, which I don't want it to be.

@AshGirl possibly?!

I will find that book. Even if it gives me one more strategy I will be grateful.

I am also particularly sensitive as she is now gone off to stay with her dad, which brings up loads of other emotions (he denies any big tantrums, although accepts she is willful)

It's not a battle of wills, because you are the adult and you will win (I used to mutter this to myself sometimes). I'm probably too soft and responsive a parent sometimes but as long as you're doing reasonable things (like going to the park and not lifting her up because it hurts, or not carrying her or giving her a snack 2 mins after she's just had one) it is OK to think 'I will win this' to yourself sometimes I think. Not everything is a negotiation, sometimes it's just that way because you say it is and you have your reasons. I do really think trusting yourself to believe that can communicate itself to your kid - and the other mums at the playground too actually.

As for not having tantrums with DH - whatevs. Maybe she doesn't feel relaxed enough to do it in his company.

My 4yo ds can be like this and it's usually tiredness... a few early nights and his mood improves considerably. Also with tantrums, if she is not totally losing control (I know tantrums can vary massively between children), we use a visual timer. We put it on and say "when the timer stops, stop crying and come and give mummy/daddy a cuddle" and, amazingly, it works! Usually we put it on for 3 minutes, maybe 5 minutes if ds is really going for it. I can't claim credit for this - it's a strategy nursery used when he was settling in last year and he used to tantrum at drop off - it works like a charm, on him at least.

@RavenclawsRoar have just ordered a variety of colourful egg-timers for different durations. I like that idea and I can see she would be distracted by it, so going to give that a go.

This is all really helpful, been feeling so exhausted by it all this afternoon, but hopefully it'll get better.

Thanks @ThePlantsitter I have no doubt that I worry that I try to exert too much control sometimes or pick the wrong battles. Perhaps I am inadvertently sabotaging myself as it feels like everything I did and asked of her today was reasonable. And Dad is 'fun dad' so I guess that's a pain. Plus he's twice as strong as me so she probably gets carried more with him.

Hi OP,
It sounds like your already using these techniques about naming emotions when they are having a emotional meltdown.. but Kate Silverton book “ there’s no such thing as naughty” is excellent for this age and contains good parenting strategies- they do work.
Also something to think about - are you sure your DC doesn’t have an iron deficiency ? You might want to give her supplements ( Holland and barrett do drops that are great and you will see the improvement in her behaviour quite quickly as her fatigue lessens).
It’s tough being a parent and I never realised what a difficult age 4 was! 😀

[quote AMalTiempoBuenaCara]@AshGirl possibly?!

I will find that book. Even if it gives me one more strategy I will be grateful.

I am also particularly sensitive as she is now gone off to stay with her dad, which brings up loads of other emotions (he denies any big tantrums, although accepts she is willful)[/quote]
I found the book most helpful for calming me down and resetting my own emotions so that I felt more positive!** A lot of the strategies are not suitable for my DS as he doesn't have enough speech but it helps me feel more confident and enthusiastic to keep trying!

PS My DS has DiGeorge Syndrome - not sure if that's the same as your daughter but happy to chat if that would help

@Genevie82 interesting re: iron. She has a heart condition and is slightly hypermobile, which I have no doubt makes her tired sometimes. But it is so variable, some days she can run and run. I do give her a multi vitamin, but it doesn't contain iron, so it may be worth a try (her diet and behaviour at mealtimes is a whole other post).

@AshGirl oh interesting. No my DD has Noonans, but her specific genetic mutation (LZTR1) affects the same gene as Digeorge syndrome I think.

.. I would really recommend you give her an iron supplement, especially if she’s fussy with food and see if that helps her mood/ behaviour - check the amounts in different brands as they can really vary ..nature’s aid mini drops are v good x