those of you with sons, did you see this in The Times last week?

[clumsymum]

women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article2889307.ece?Submitted=true an article entitled "Boys Must Be Boys" , basically suggesting we are trying to fit our little boys into an enclosed society, so tightly, and too early.

I found it fascinating, even tho' I might not agree with every word.

were also lucky enough that my children can be outside lots.id go mad if they couldnt!!!they love to be indoors but ds1 especially loves to be out and i think ds2 is taking after him.dd seems more to want to sit in when its cold etc making things.

My ds has been branded "wild" my my mum because he's constantly moving about / on the go. He's only 9 months..

My 3 year old nephew is a typical boisterous boy but others are always trying to put his mum and dad down, saying they have no control etc. But he's not a bad boy, just an ordinary child.

Mums are constantly fed the message by society that they must be perfect and I think this is often at the expense of our children as we feel we've got to have them behaving perfectly, sitting quietly, no rough and tumble etc or face dissaprovaland gossip that our dc are "out of control"

The other difficulty is that there are hardly any appropriate outdoor spaces for them to play either, the woods / fields where they play are all being turned into houses.

Maybe we should all move to Scandanavia. Rant over

I think it is good people are writing about what I think is the 'emasculation' of boys.
I recoil at the memory of going to organised toddler sessions with my 2 DSs when they were 1 and 3. I only ever went to indoor sessions in the winter, and always did outside activities when the weather permitted. I can still remember feeling that other mums were looking down on me and my DSs as if I couldn't manage their behaviour. I felt really unwelcome and TBH a failure. Those other mums had DDs or a single boy.

As my DSs have grown older now 6 and 8 I still get hacked off by people who look at us down their noses as though 'can't she control those boys?' when they are just being high spirited, don't like being confined spaces too much, and sin of sins can sometimes be physically rough with other boys. Most of the time they are gentle, loving and thoughtful boys.

Hopefully some 'perfect parents with perfectly behaved DC' will get to read some of these articles, and realise that being a boisterous boy is normal, and a healthy stage of a child's development.

I agree wholeheartedly with the article. Somewhere over the last twenty years our perception of boys' behaviour has changed beyond recognition.

Interestingly, I went to look at a local nursery today. DS is entitled to his 12.5 free hours from January. I was very heartened to be told that the double doors (leading out to the play area) are left open at all times, come rain or shine ... and that if any children just wanted to run around outside and not take part in the activities, they were free to do so.

She warned me that ds would come back filthy at the end of a session. I left feeling pretty happy with the place.

desi - if any of my DCs came back from GPs, childminder or nursery spotlessly clean I'd be worried

I also think its great that this topic is being discussed. My ds who is 3 has just started nursery 2 mornings a week, and I stayed with him for the first 2 sessions...I must say I was surprised at how they expected the children to behave. Shouting and running around inside was not allowed...instead everybody had to play 'nicely'. I found that it was very emasculated and feminised. I felt quite sorry for all the boys there. Having said that though my ds really enjoys it and it is only 2 mornings a week! i suppose it is good for him to learn that certain types of behaviour are not appropriate in certain settings. My ds is quite excitable though and I imagine that its probably difficult for him not be physically boisterous there! It has made me slightly concerned about how things will be at school...as I imagine that even a group of boys running around and shouting at break times in the play ground would be told to calm down a bit! I am going to make a conscious effort to get ds involved in things like cubs and scouts, and even martial arts groups, as they need an outlet for their energy and aggression.

My DSs adore going to beavers. The first time I have witnessed where boys look 'odd' who don't run around, shout, wrestle, be annoying, be silly etc. Didn't offer to help out though when the leader was asking for volunteers to run it each week

I think part of the problem is that people are far less tolerant of children than they used to be.

Kids used to play outside by where I live in a big square. Due to the number of complaints (by the pain in arse yuppie run local nieghbourhood group) this has now been stopped.

We have a local park - but considering the number of stabbings etc that have taken place there, people are understandably wary of letting kids play there without supervision.

It does my head in. These are the same type of people who can;t understand why kids are obese today

My DS 12 is a scout and loves camp and being out doors climbing trees, also loves being at home.

The old -bag- lady down the road complains about children all the time.
She regularly calls the police complain there are children running wild on the school field, knowing full well its the scouts.

Boys really don't have the freedom to run and let off steam anymore.
Unfortunately my ds has been mugged by boys from another school and he no longer wants to go out.

I am generally grey-friendly but I have to admit that there is one old lady in our street who twitches her curtains every time a child comes near her front windows. If any of them dare to play footie she's out the door screeching at them. It's such a shame. There's no need for it and they are all scared of her now. It makes all the parents in the street much less likely to offer her help or even say hello.

TheMadHouse mentions boys running round at dance classes - oh yes, I remember it well! My ds1 is now 6 but he started being very active whilst very tiny. We used to go to a sing-along group with gently orchestrated actions - ha! After half a term we were asked to leave the group 'cos DS preferred to run about and occasionally pulled out plug from CD player mid-song. Oops! I felt terrible but the teacher was fine, in fact it was other parents complaining that had forced her to ask us to leave; she would have been quite happy about us staying. She said it was quite normal and had other kids in different groups doing similar things, it just so happened parents in this group were refusing to come back unless we went!

I agree with the article wholeheartedly. I am the mother of 2 active pre-schoolers and recognise the need for them to boisterous. My question is: Do I delay school?

The times article explains the benefits of delaying formal education until 7 (like in the Scandinavian countries) but I'm not sure what I would do with both boys. Home school them?

Interestingly enough an American academic went to Oxford university last week to advise that we send our children into formal education at 7 plus.

Read this with interest and as the mother of a DD as well as a DS. I'm determined to encourage her to have as much outdoor play as him. I strongly believe girls need it just as much as boys.

Today, I have just come back from the park (really fantastic, one with 3 big play areas). Very mild, sunny day. I was shocked that we were the only people there. OK, so older children are at school, but where were all the younger ones? Seems to me a lot of parents are keeping their children indoors.

I think some schools are starting to catch up with the new research on gender and learning

--the school DS goes to has created an outdoor area, partly for this reason.

Zola78: you raise a good Q.
I think parents can (ideally) do a lot to counter-act the female bias of most education systems: let your boys take risks, have lots of unstructured play, be physical with each other, show off, be boisterous, vie for social position as much as you dare. Also, don't take it as end of world if you have more than a few chats with teacher about impulsive or naughty behaviour; most boys just DO have problems with impulse control. Some schools r more enlightened about boys ed. and social needs than others, I can't help but think that a school that outright tells you they're more interested in a "well-rounded child" than academic results will probably be best for most boys.

Actually, I'm on another thread about Montessori nurseries and I realise that's one thing I don't much like about our Montessori, too much focus on calm order to suit many boys, little emphasis on outdoor play, and the learning that can come with using gross motor skills. American friends delayed their son starting kindergarten until he was 6.5yo -- birthday 6 months before the usual cut off date!. I wonder if they would think their son was "too immature" to start formal education if he weren't at a Montessori school.

Delaying school can have a lot of disadvantages, you have to read up on it. Home-ed not for everyone, either.

Really interesting article, just seen it, thanks clumsy

i have a baby boy and a four year old, who has just started reception.

I go to get him every day at lunchtime as he has been so tired, and the full days were too much for him.

Every day when I get there, he is invariably on top of some other little kid, underneath another, all red faced and muddy, being told by the dinner lady to stop fighting but I think she knows when to leave them to it...I can see that they need to do it and are always laughing at each other/with each other. They are lovely.

At home he gets a fair bit of 'STOP IT' from me I'm afraid - he is the most active, boisterous child I've ever met, thoroughly endearing and totally innocent/loving - he never means to hurt anyone or anything - but I do sometimes get fed up with the constant breakages and injuries to his baby brother, and to myself so he gets told off because I get so frustrated.
It does make me tired just watching him sometimes!

I really hope he does get enough freedom at school - and continues to as he goes up the years. They start expecting more of their boys as they progress. I am glad there is a lot of play time built in at least.
Thinking about home education but he would have less opportunity to hit other children and I actually believe he loves being at school. Hard for me to accept as I hated it, but if he is happy I will leave him there.