Sleep & bedtime nightmare - what am I doing wrong?

[Llamasally]

10 week old DD will not nap for more than about 20 minutes in the daytime, that’s really rare too. Mostly it’s 10 minute cat naps and as the day goes on she gets more and more grumpy.

DS is recently 2 and ends up an emotional wreck every afternoon. He usually is great in the morning, runs round like a maniac, wakes up from his after lunch nap crying and grumpy and it’s down hill from there really.

Every bedtime (we start at 6 winding down, baths etc) it’s a hellish screaming frenzy where my I’m being deafened by both of them crying and feel like I need to split myself in half. It’s just horrible and I feel like crying at what a mess I’m making of things with them.

DH tries hard to be around and splits it with me when he’s home which makes it more bearable but he works over bedtime quite a bit, so I need to crack this on my own. Also I feel like it’s rooted in an all day problem, not just night time.

So far I have tried to focus on babies sleep - trying to get in more of a routine, swaddling, white noise. Nothing really helping so far except sleeping in the sling which I can’t do much as I have back problems.

Toddlers rough routine is:
Up and breakfast at 7
Play outside 8.30-10.30 then snack
With me on errands, stuff round the house etc
12-12.30 lunch
1.30 nap (usually between 1-2 hours)
3 ish some kind of activity
4.30 -5.30 tea
6 milk, bath, teeth, stories, bed.

They both sleep well for respective ages overnight once down.

Any advice very welcome before I lose my mind 🙏

Everything seems quite early to me?

My 12 month old wouldn’t every be tired by 6pm so if I tried bedtime then he would cause chaos

Usually here since recently ( used to be awful napping also)
6am wake
1-3pm nap
6/6.30pm dinner
8pm bedtime

It all varies by an hour depending on if he gets up super early/ sleeps in/ later nap etc. But that’s what I aim for

My then 18 month old used to "camp" while I got baby to sleep. I would put a blanket over the couch to make a tent and put her in cosy, blankets, pillow, sometimes with music, a few Teddy's and have a big "you're so grown up you get to camp here" chat and ask her to be a really big girl and camp quietly while I get baby to sleep. She loved it. 9 times out of 10 she fell asleep there peacefully and I lifted her into bed once baby was down. Maybe something like that might work?

Just to say, the other 1 time from 10 she screamed the place down, baby cried, I did a lot of swearing-in-my-head-calm-on-the-outside......

@Caspianberg the reason I start bedtime early is because they are both a tired mess by then ☹️

@MistyFrequencies the sounds a lovely idea but Im almost sure DS wouldn’t go for it, he won’t have a nap unless in the buggy strapped in so he HAS to stop charging round

I would make the toddler a comfy spot in the bedroom, give them their milk in a sippy cup and an episode of Peppa on your phone with volume on low whilst you feed and settle baby. Then do them afterwards. A slightly later bedtime would probably help- 6 is very early especially if dinner is at 5.30.

Is his nap a bit late for an early bedtime? If mine slept till 3pm that would mean any chance of a 7pm bedtime would be out if the window.

What time do they actually fall asleep after all the drama?

My eldest is now 4 but when he was two he was going to bed at 8 pm. It only became earlier once he dropped the nap. Are you capping his nap or letting him wake when he wants to?

I agree that waking from a nap at 3 there is no chance of a 7pm bedtime.
My son would need to be up at 1pm for a 7am bedtime

Interesting on the timing for bed for others - toddler always goes to sleep almost straight away and does seem tired by 7 when he is in bed. I’ve never thought of putting the baby down first as that can take ages, whilst DS will be getting more annoyed and tired. Certainly worth a try though, see what happens!

@NatalieH2220 if he doesn’t wake himself after 1.5 ish hours I get him up unless he’s had a very early start/disturbed night/I’m desperately trying to do stuff!

In fairness my DD had a nap 1-3 and settled straight to sleep at 7 until she was 3! Some kids do need more sleep than others and you know your children best. My thought was more that a 6pm bedtime is very early when you’re feeding dinner at 5.30 and it doesn’t allow for any wind down or even time to digest. If you reckon the toddler is easier to settle and that the baby isn’t over tired then you could do the opposite and bounce baby in bouncer whilst you do the toddler’s story etc. I find the key is working out who can most easily wait, and making sure that they are occupied whilst you tend to the other.

@LakeShoreD yes we have a BabyBjorn so could try bouncing baby in that during bedtime to see if it eases the screaming. The only thing that will soothe the baby at this time is pyjamas on and lay across my lap jiggling very energetically, definitely easier to get the toddler settled and down in bed at the moment. It’s so awful from late afternoon onwards though I’m ashamed to say I dread it.

It’s the worst isn’t it? I used to dread it too but I now have quite a strict evening routine which helps me and I let the big one watch TV to make it easier. This is roughly what our evening looks like if it helps:

Baby has a short nap sometime between 4 and 5pm. 5pm-ish I get both fed- easy dinner for the toddler and milk for baby followed by wind down with TV and milk for toddler, baby in the sling whilst I clean up dinner, lay out PJs, run the bath. Both in the bath at about 6, followed by teeth brushing for toddler and into PJs. Then I usually do the baby whilst the toddler snuggles up with some Peppa on the iPad but in your case I would probably try baby in the bouncer whilst you do the toddler first. Baby should be ok to wait if they’ve been fed at 5 and haven’t been awake for longer than about 2 hours.

I'd try having the daytime nap earlier - maybe do your errands in the afternoon?

@Llamasally are you me? Honestly. I have a 19mo and 2mo. My DH also only helps sometimes and the evenings are hell. Pure hell.

I focus on the older one for sleep (and generally more) because the small one is easier to deal with if overtired. When he wakes up from his nap, he can be unsettled too so I carry him around a lot, speak in low voice to him, cuddle, I let him properly wake up for 30-40 minutes. No rushing anywhere no activities no feeding nothing just cuddles and some gentle speaking. Once he decides he is OK and fully up then I ask if he is hungry and what he would like to do in the afternoon.

We have almost the same routine as you (up at 7am and bedtime 6-7pm). I have recently noticed the older one does not fall asleep till about 8pm. He does get grumpy and hyperactive around 7pm and it is really hard to see if earlier bedtime is the answer, or later one. The one thing that does help is get him physically wasted beyond anything, like run jump climb carry things lift put in and out - basically a proper evening workout that is not crazy in terms of noises or stuff but calm deliberate workout. When the weather was vile I made him walk 8 flights of stairs up and down and up and down... anything like that. Baby lives in the sling, my back is a wreck to the point it makes me cry at night to even move but mental health over physical health for me is the answer.

What I try to do in the evening is bath little one with the older one watching, then leave little one dry and washed while I bath older one (little one screams full on). Then nappy milk for older one and to bed where he drinks his milk and I BF younger one. Then I read to them till they fall asleep. This can be 20min or 40 or 60 or longer (by which time I lose the plot several times and question all my life's choices).

Sorry I do not have any real advice, just commiseration from me to know that there are more of us with this struggle.

FWIW the advice for 2yo sleep is 11-12hrs night time, 1-2hrs daytime so you are spot on.

@LakeShoreD

It’s the worst isn’t it? I used to dread it too but I now have quite a strict evening routine which helps me and I let the big one watch TV to make it easier. This is roughly what our evening looks like if it helps:

Baby has a short nap sometime between 4 and 5pm. 5pm-ish I get both fed- easy dinner for the toddler and milk for baby followed by wind down with TV and milk for toddler, baby in the sling whilst I clean up dinner, lay out PJs, run the bath. Both in the bath at about 6, followed by teeth brushing for toddler and into PJs. Then I usually do the baby whilst the toddler snuggles up with some Peppa on the iPad but in your case I would probably try baby in the bouncer whilst you do the toddler first. Baby should be ok to wait if they’ve been fed at 5 and haven’t been awake for longer than about 2 hours.

This all sounds very doable except for the baby nap part - they don’t! 😩

[quote ZooKeeper19]@Llamasally are you me? Honestly. I have a 19mo and 2mo. My DH also only helps sometimes and the evenings are hell. Pure hell.

I focus on the older one for sleep (and generally more) because the small one is easier to deal with if overtired. When he wakes up from his nap, he can be unsettled too so I carry him around a lot, speak in low voice to him, cuddle, I let him properly wake up for 30-40 minutes. No rushing anywhere no activities no feeding nothing just cuddles and some gentle speaking. Once he decides he is OK and fully up then I ask if he is hungry and what he would like to do in the afternoon.

We have almost the same routine as you (up at 7am and bedtime 6-7pm). I have recently noticed the older one does not fall asleep till about 8pm. He does get grumpy and hyperactive around 7pm and it is really hard to see if earlier bedtime is the answer, or later one. The one thing that does help is get him physically wasted beyond anything, like run jump climb carry things lift put in and out - basically a proper evening workout that is not crazy in terms of noises or stuff but calm deliberate workout. When the weather was vile I made him walk 8 flights of stairs up and down and up and down... anything like that. Baby lives in the sling, my back is a wreck to the point it makes me cry at night to even move but mental health over physical health for me is the answer.

What I try to do in the evening is bath little one with the older one watching, then leave little one dry and washed while I bath older one (little one screams full on). Then nappy milk for older one and to bed where he drinks his milk and I BF younger one. Then I read to them till they fall asleep. This can be 20min or 40 or 60 or longer (by which time I lose the plot several times and question all my life's choices).

Sorry I do not have any real advice, just commiseration from me to know that there are more of us with this struggle.

FWIW the advice for 2yo sleep is 11-12hrs night time, 1-2hrs daytime so you are spot on.[/quote]
@ZooKeeper19 I’m not sure if this makes me feel better or not!! 😂

Thanks though really appreciate it, I suppose it makes me feel less useless and that I’m not the only one not having lovely peaceful evenings reading and bathing smiling sleepy children!! (Joke obviously!)

I know with another older child to care for the baby will sometimes have to be left to cry a little bit when unavoidable- but God it’s hard to hear 😢 even when you know they are fed/changed/warm enough etc

Sorry you’re having a hard time!

For my little girl at that age an early lunch worked better. Activity to knacker her out 9-10.30, then lunch say 11, then a good two hour nap 12-2 ish. Early dinner too about 4pm. With bedtime starting at 6.30.

Not much advice for the 10 week old. DD didn’t really have a routine at that age! She was a screamer though so I sympathise.