Bedtime is a disaster!

[AnotherWorriedMummy]

Hello wise mumsnetters!

My 2.5 DD has always been very resistant to sleep and naps. She insists that I stay with her and hold her hand for her to sleep, but this can be anywhere between 30 minutes and over 2 hours.

She is a lovely, happy girl during the day and then as we start our bedtime routine you can see her worry setting in. She starts asking if I’m going to stay with her, etc.

We have a very simple bedtime routine that we have basically followed since she was born.

I am pregnant (due June) and wonder how I’m going to spend two hours settling DD and look after the baby?!

We’ve looked into one of these sleep professionals but goodness me, they’re pricey.

So please help! Does anyone have any advice?

We’ve tried gradual retreat (failed as she insists on holding my hand), just leaving her (she screams and shakes the stair gate) and telling her that I have something to do and will be back to check on her (she offers to help and insists on coming with me).

Thank you so much in advance. Xxx

Does she nap still? If so cull that so she’s exhausted.
How about a night projector thing with music that she can look at and drift off to sleep with?

She’s still very little. How is she once she’s asleep?

We used to hold DD’s hand while she fell asleep initially and I can’t quite remember how we stopped but she’s five now and falls asleep by herself brilliantly, just took her a bit longer to get there.

It only ever took her five or ten minutes to fall asleep though. Sitting rare for two hours is a massive burden. What’s she like when it takes her ages? Messing about? Genuinely not tired?

Would a timer work. So say you’ll sit with her for ten minutes and that’s it. I’d normally say she’ll get there on her own but can see the dilemma you’re in with baby due.

Sorry, not that helpful! But I have been there and it didn’t last forever.

Sorry if this is what you meant by the gradual retreat but have you tried the super nanny method?

Put them to bed and leave. If they get up, take their hand and say bedtime darling and put them back to bed. Next time just say bedtime and from therein don't engage and just put them back to bed.

I say this not having tried myself but you usually get a few converts on sleep threads who swear by it. Say the first couple of nights took an hour or so and then got a lot easier.

Separation anxiety, totally normal!

She might be worried that the new baby will replace her.

She might be afraid of being alone at night and so resists sleep and naps.

Google overnight separation anxiety, and watch how you’re communicating about the new baby to her and around her.

Cuddly toys for comfort, going back to reassure her every 5 minutes, there’s also a trick with paper hearts, are all helpful tools too.

I agree with above poster, not a fan of her but supernanny methods definitely work.
Draw a line, explain to her what will happen at bed time and stick firm to it. Take her back to bed when she gets out calmly and without engaging. Or repeat the words consistently as you put her back. She will get fed up, might take a good few times and prepare for it to be worse before better but with another one coming now is the time to do it.
A gro clock might be helpful if she hasn't got one already? Read the story with her and explain she needs to stay in bed while it is blue. She is old enough to understand at this age.
It's a hard process but so worth it.

Gosh thank you all for replying so quickly. I wish I’d posted sooner.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers Thank you for your reply! She dropped her nap very early so I know she’s tired!
She has her teddies and a light projector that plays music.
She actually gets into bed fine, tucks herself in, etc. And if she does follow me out, I said “no” and she tootles back to bed to cry!

@SaveWaterDrinkGin thank you for your help! I’ve said I’m happy to sit with her for up to 20 minutes but 2 hours is just ridiculous. I’ve tried to tell her I’ll stay for ten minutes, etc., but I think she’s too little to understand that?

Sometimes she messes about a bit (sings songs mainly!) and when she does this, I leave... she cries and chases me, and it all starts again!

I know others who say it doesn’t last forever, so this does help! It’s just hard to imagine it when you’re in it sometimes isn’t it?!

@fistasledge Oh yes I have tried the Supernanny method - sometimes it works (but usually because she gets a bit worn out from crying!)

@littlejalapeno thank you! She’s very positive about the baby... in fact I’m pretty sure she thinks the baby is for her! I’ll have a look into your suggestions - thank you xx

@foodtoorder I think it’s worth a try isn’t it?! It’s hard to know how long to persist with certain methods (especially when you’re tired!).

She has a groclock and she does understand it! Says goodnight to the sun, etc.

Thank you for your help!

Do you have a Nightlight? My ds needed one at that age very suddenly, and also for me to leave his door open a crack and potter about upstairs when he is going to sleep.

One option would be gradual retreat so you could sit next to get but not hold her hand, next sit a bit further, etc. It might be useful to start by not holding her hand. However, I wonder if you will just wind her up. What you don't want is her feeling like she's got to watch out for you, or check you are still there. Which gradual retreat at this age could do, equally so could promising you'll check in on her.

Personally I think I would aim for leaving door open and pottering about upstairs putting washing away and things. With a reward in the morning if she goes to sleep on her own. If she gets out of bed, just quietly take her back.

I would go for instant gratification, something like a chocolate button! If you choose a reward chart instead then keep it really do-able eg 3 stickers, not 10.

I have to say taking her back to bed repeatedly didn't do it for my Dd, we would spend 2hrs+ taking her back to bed and this was at 1:30am. But she was older than your Dd.

If things aren't going to plan you can come back and ask again...

Sorry I haven't RTFT but do you have a partner who can take turns? I still have to lie with my 4 and 2 year old but I take turns with my DH so it's manageable. And this is how we managed when DS2 was born.
Also they're not so excited by DH so tend to go to sleep faster!

FWIW I'm glad we've done it this way. It feels like a great comfort to them both and way to connect with us each day. Despite the many evenings of gritted teeth

I’ll be honest OP the super nanny method will work if you are consistent, if you go back to holding her hand you’re right back at square 1.
I do know some children that have real anxiety issues, their mum got them worry beads and did a mini meditation before bedtime. Is she anxious in other aspects of the day?

My trick was to tell DD I was just popping down stairs to finish the v washing up/do some ironing/tidy up/ whatever, and that I'd be back in 10 mins.
I always went back - 9 times out of 10 she'd be asleep.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but your dd does not “insist “ that she falls asleep holding your hand. Unfortunately you have allowed this to happen by not having boundaries in place to stop her from getting used to you being there.
Of course she is going to cry and scream if you leave her she is trying to get you back.
I’m not sure what you hope to achieve by negotiating how long you will spend with her. You are the adult and therefore in charge of bedtime not her.
The good news is that you have plenty of time to turn this around.
As others have suggested you need to use a method which clearly tells your dd that will return her to her bed with no chat and no distractions until she’s gets the message.
There are hundreds of posts in here on how to do this along with hundreds of other parents just like me who had to implement them in order that your dd will self sooth and fall asleep in her own. Sadly you are not doing her any favours by lying with her for two hours.

Thank you everyone!

@Orangeinmybluelightcup yes we have a nightlight. I did gradual retreat when she was a little younger and it seemed to work but that was when she was in a cot! Now she’s in her bed, she can get out to try to cuddle me so it’s not as easy. I know I sound like a complete pushover!

I would like to try some form of rowed chart with her but she just becomes so irrational at bedtime! But it’s worth a shot!
I think I’ll reward myself with chocolate buttons!

@OnlyFoolsnMothers thank you - I think I’ll have to try it again!
She’s not anxious with anything else and is happy to go to be left with my mum for short periods!

@MrsFin Thank you for your reply! Nice to hear this method worked!

@crazybunchofdolls my partner isn’t around in the week at all, so it would only be weekends he could help. We tend to just crack on without him with our routine as in a pandemic-free world he is away abroad a lot and I’m parenting on my own most of the time.
I’m so glad it worked out for you and thank you so much for your advise x

@giggly harsh but SO true!!! It’s a ridiculous set up and I’m aware of how much she’s mugging me off! I know of so many instances where sleep training techniques have worked, but probably the same amount where the parents have been silly sausages like me and had an exhausting few years until the child suddenly grows out of it.
Thanks for your wise words! Xx

Sorry for the harshness but honestly if you it the work in and it will be torture for a week or so then the bliss when then self sooth and fall over to sleep themselves is absolutely blissful. Pick a date for starting preferably when you have someone to help. I made my then dh promise that he would not allow me to back down when my dc screams were horrible and I was in tears as I felt terrible but after 3 nights it was like a different child.
Once you crack it with this one it will be a doodle with dc2.

I’m going to go against the other advice and say that you don’t have to sleep train. It would be pretty tough at 2.5!
We have always sat with our DD (just turned 3) as she falls asleep and usually we are downstairs again and getting on with our evening by 7-7.30. That special time matters to us all. DH and I take it in turns and we have focused the routine to make sure we support sleep. We have a really fun playful half hour before bath, then a nice long bath, stories, and bed.

Sometimes being unsettled at bedtime is about separation - so good to reassure. It can also about bottled up emotions that need to be let out before settling to sleep: www.awareparenting.com/crying in arms.htm

This really worked for us.

I stayed with DS1 until he fell asleep until he was about 4. However I agree it's unsustainable if it takes so long. It was OK with DS1 because it usually only took about 20 minutes.

Is there anything different you can identify about the nights it takes 30 minutes vs the nights it takes 2 hours, or does it seem to be random?

Does she fall asleep any quicker if you do anything in particular such as lying in her bed/stroking her back/sitting on bed reminding her how to relax/not engaging at all?

Advice seems to go one of two ways - you either go cold turkey and deal with the fallout, or you back-cycle to find a point she's really happy and comfortable with and then slowly stretch out/wean off from there. This is the way I'd personally go because I think it's more effective (and kinder) but I've never been in much of a hurry to change things. It will be tricky once you've got the baby as well if you don't have a partner around. But TBH whatever changes you make now might well be totally upended when the baby arrives anyway.

I like the sleep stuff I'm reading by Lyndsay Hookway recently BTW - seems a great mix of evidence based, effective but also gentler than the Supernanny etc techniques.

@giggly no need to apologise! Harshness is needed sometimes - especially in motherhood! Thank you for your advice.

@Coachee thank you!!! I’m happy to sit with her for about 20 minutes! Like you said, as long as I’m downstairs for 7.30/7.45pm to eat chocolate and watch tele in peace then I can stay a little sane!!! It’s nice to hear you did this too :)
With the new baby and starting preschool in September, there is a lot of changes about to happen that could disturb or improve sleep anyway!

@BertieBotts did your little one suddenly start being happy to tootle off to be on their own?

Thank you for your advice - I like a gentle method. I’ll definitely check out Lyndsay Hookway. X

My trick was to tell DD I was just popping down stairs to finish the v washing up/do some ironing/tidy up/ whatever, and that I'd be back in 10 mins. Great tip. I'm convinced this was why my ds (dc2 - two years younger than dd) was always a better sleeper from the off. I'd get him ready for bed, read story to dd while giving him his last feed, put him down then take dd into her room to tuck her in. He would grizzle for a bit, but inevitably by the time I'd spent ten minutes (or whatever) fussing with dd he would have dropped off on his own. To this day he's the better sleeper - wished I'd done this with dd from the start - the trouble is with the first one you are aware of every squeak and grizzle. The second (and any subsequent ones) just have to wait because they are not the centre of your universe.

@LillianGish @MrsFin I’m trying the telling DD I have something to do technique...
I’ve tried it a few months ago and she always hopped out of bed to “help” but last night after 45 mins of hand holding I told her I needed a wee (not a lie!) and that she should stay in bed and I would come back to check her. After 5 minutes she fell asleep, but I still went in and kissed her on the head.

This evening I’ve tried that again and she said “ok mummy” and kissed me. It has been 15 minutes and she isn’t asleep, but isn’t crying and is still in bed. Do I go back in?! She hasn’t called for me. I don’t want to disrupt her settling herself but I also don’t want to not keep to my word if that makes sense?!

Thanks for all your help and for being so patient!

Leave her if she isn't crying! Stick your head in later when she's asleep if you want to keep your word. Great stuff - sounds like it's working already.

@LillianGish thank you for replying so quickly! I’m just sat staring at the monitor 😂