The line between discipline and abuse

[Pinkmoon33]

I'm wondering if I can have some help to resolve some personal issues. I had a baby last year and since I had him it has brought up lots of issues from my childhood. I was raised by a father who was funny, a good story teller, financially generous and caring but also has a foul temper. He used to lose his shit with us and beat us, chase us up the stairs and I would run into the bathroom while he beat at the door with his fists. I spent many afternoons asleep on the bathroom floor. When I was at uni he accused me of breaking the TV and when I told him where to go he picked me up by the scruff of the neck and beat at me with his fists. My older brother experienced incidents like this but describes it as a parenting style, I felt it verges on abuse. It's really difficult to resolve in my head as I just dont know what the general consensus is among people, I think smacking is legal in this country? Where is the line?

That was abuse.

100% abuse. I'm so sorry you had to experience that OP. Being violent towards children is never, ever OK.

It's abuse, very plainly.

And I suggest you take parenting classes and get counselling so that you can pick the opposite way to care for your family.

I have never hit DD, I barely raise my voice or change my tone. She's a lovely child. Who struggled with behaviour and we managed it without any of what your father did.

Thanks for your responses. I would never ever parent my son in this way. I am having counselling to try and resolve some of the issues I have from my childhood. I'm finding it hard to reconcile because my father describes us as vile as teens and often jokes that beating us made him feel good afterwards. It just has really thrown me when my brother called it a 'parenting style' he didn't agree with but not abuse. We are from a mixed background where my non white cultural heritage accepts parents ability to use physical force to punish children

I’m soo sorry this happened to you this is way past any kind of parenting style and very classic abuse I hope you get some healing it was not your fault

The cultural piece does make it more complicated. And there are cultures in which physical punishment is more accepted. Generally studies show that in these cultures there can be less psychological damage than from hitting in cultures it doesn't happen in. They think because the child recognises the parent's intent. This may be where your brother is.

But you don't have to be in the same place as him. Or agree.

I can't imagine telling my child I enjoyed beating them. that for me is where you father is definitely abusive. He is still abusing you when he says that.

Sorry to read about what happened, OP.

I’m afraid it’s abuse, no two ways about it. Well done on being so thoughtful about becoming a parent yourself and going to counselling (no small thing), your DC already has it way better with you as a parent.

I hear you about the cultural acceptance but, unfortunately, the science is very clear that this sort of thing impacts the developing brain. So, even if it was “the done thing”culturally, some damage was also done irrespective of how this was perceived.

There must be a lot to unpack in all of this for you, and you will with time. Keep at it. There’s a good book called The Psychology of Babies by L Murray that you may have helping about early years development and attachment.

Thank you for your responses. I will look into the book suggested by the previous poster. Its hard to use the word abuse because I guess that makes him an abuser which has so much weight to it. He is still very angry and prone to losing his temper now when upset. But he can also be funny and a decent conversationalist. There were good moments with him too when growing up. I am torn with what to do as I feel like I have no local family to help me with my son if something should happen to me but him and my mum but I also don't trust him. I will add that I added the cultural element but my dad is white, my mum is Asian which is why I think there is some acceptence with her and my brother's of this behaviour from him.

If it helps not to think of your dad that way, someone used this analogy on another thread.

My child plays the cello. But I don't describe them as a cellist.

Your dad did abusive things. You don't have to think of him as an abuser if it's not helpful to you.

And I would not use them for childcare.

Most cultures that normalise physical punishment also normalise overindulgant affectionate parenting styles too. So the effect is softened. For example DH used to get beaten with a stick by his parents, but they would also move mountains to do anything and everything he asked of them and would take his opinion over the tiniest of things. And his gran would offset things by totally spoiling him rotten.

If you didn’t get both sides of the cultural equation from your dad then it is abuse.

Abuse. So sorry you had to go through that.

If you didn’t get both sides of the cultural equation from your dad then it is abuse

Sorry, I completely disagree with this. Beating children, beating their door as they cower inside, picking up someone by the scruff of their neck and beating them with your fists in abuse and completely illegal.
It does not stop being abuse because sometimes they were nice.

and often jokes that beating us made him feel good afterwards
This is a disgusting comment from you Dad. No remorse. he actually enjoyed it.

picking up someone by the scruff of their neck and beating them with your fists in abuse

I'm not sure anyone is arguing this is anything other than horrifying. I addressed the cultural component as OP's brother sees their childhood differently. And that's his right. Everyone gets to name their own experiences.

What OP's father did doesn't come under cultural norms anyway as he was abusive by any standards.

OP please don’t trust him anywhere near your kids. Never leave them with him. Your mum accepted his behaviour and allowed it, so sadly you can’t trust her to monitor his behaviour with your kids.
It sounds like he still gets kicks out of the thought of harming children.

Before smacking was made illegal here, I remember being told that the reason behind the smacking determined whether it was appropriate or abuse.

For example a kid reaching up to the gas cooker with the gas ring on and a boiling pot on it having his hand slapped away hard and a ‘no’ shouted at him would be delivered to teach him that touching the gas could hurt. He’d associate the gas cooker with pain and keep away. It could save his life. If he did it again another smack would be delivered on the legs as a punishment to reinforce the message and hurt him more than a slap on the hand. The pain is the message. Keep away.

If the child flipped the page of the book you were reading to annoy you there would be no danger of burning and no reason to smack him. A ‘no’ should suffice, followed by being sent to his room.

So instead if you jumped up and proceeded to leather the living shit out of him it’s because YOU are angry. YOU are taking out YOUR frustration. It’s all about YOU and being unable to control YOURself. The wrong reason to smack. That makes it abuse for sure.

A punch is always abuse.

Being lifted off your feet for any reason while being hit is always abuse.

Back in the day abuse was accepted. Thank goodness it’s not now. If someone can’t control themselves they shouldn’t be in charge of children. Your father was a shit parent. Sorry OP and sorry for what you went through. You may have been a little shit but you were a child. Your father was a full grown adult and a bully. Probably bullied your mother too.

My mother said smacking us made her feel so much better, and got her anger out.

She also said we deserved it because we were vile.

My father was terrifying with his voice, shouting and crashing around.

They could also be nice and funny.

I don't see them anymore as those incidents were the tip of the iceberg and they weren't in any way sorry. They were also manipulating my children and being very underhand and still putting me down and criticising me as as an adult and mum.

I parent in the exact opposite way.

Good luck OP. The journey often starts when you have your own children. There will be stuff to work through x

Some sad stories on here. Fortunately @Pinkmoon33, although your brother doesn't acknowledge the treatment as abuse, he doesn't see it as acceptable either, meaning the chain is thankfully broken.
It was odd how smacking was always described as something you should always do with love, which makes me wonder if this is why so many women feel they have to put up with dv.
On a lesser extent my sister and I also have different perspectives of our childhood. We were born in the 70s so smacking was very normal although very rare in our home as my dad didn't really agree with it. My mum would loose it on her time of the month and scream and shout at us, or if we were perceived to be cheeky we got a slap across the face. My sis sees this as abuse as it was done out of control in temper and says it affected her, whereas I just saw it as mum's PMT. This did put walls up in our relationships with our mum until we left home. Interestingly my dsis's now adult son had no discipline whatsoever growing up, as though my sis would not physically discipline but didn't know what else to do.
Discipline is hard to get right. I hated time out too when that was popular and wouldn't really use it as I saw it as a withdrawal of affection, which is almost as bad as smacking. I always thought the best way to discipline was talking and instilling mutual respect.