Sleep training my "lively" 11 month old - worried it's not going to work!

[MonkeySounds]

Hello - I'm a first time poster on here and wondered if anyone had any advice. We have an 11 month old girl who's very lively and hyper, a bit more like a toddler in size and nature, and until November she would fall asleep on her last bottle feed and only wake once in the night. She went into a 'sleep regression' about three months ago and would wake regularly, six or seven times a night. I would settle her but the problem is she is two stone and massive, and it started to drive me to distraction, the physical effort of doing that through the night, so many times - I would be pouring with sweat and then lose my temper as soon as she was asleep again!

So we have decided to do some kind of gentle sleep training so that she can fall asleep off the bottle, in her cot, and self settle. However, the pat-pat, shush, retreat and return doesn't seem to be working. She sees it as a fun game at first and has learned to lie down and cuddle her teddy when I come in, like a little kid pretending to go to bed. But after an hour and a half she starts crying and gets hysterical as she gets more tired. We have given in and had to do a final bottle feed three nights running.

I'm worried that her general liveliness (she stands up and bounces as soon as we leave the room) means that this pat-pat method isn't going to work for her, and we are barking up the wrong tree... but we definitely don't want to do hard control crying as it just makes her more and more worked up.

Does anyone have a similar situation where their baby was quite old before they realised they couldn't just lie down and chat themselves to sleep like you see in the movies... I feel like I've missed the boat on this one and am worried! I don't want to cause her unnecessary distress but we are so worn out. Thank you!

What do her naps look like? And does she have a bedtime routine, like bath, pjs, teeth, story in the dark, cuddle, put in cot. DS is shattered by bedtime so it doesn’t sound like she’s tired if she’s so lively?

Dunno, but following as my 2yo is still the same :o

Don't worry, they do eventually sleep by themselves. You won't be feeding her to sleep when she's 6.

Thanks both! Her naptime recently changed from two lots of 30 minutes per day (THIRTY MINUTES!!!) to a good two hour stretch from 12-2pm, which is fortunately inkeeping with what she is going to get at nursery, which she starts on Jan 25th (three days per week). We have often wondered whether she is overtired, and were reassured by this longer nap happening. I do agree that it feels like she can't be tired... yet she gets twisty and even slaps her own head sometimes by about 7pm so we think she is... Her nighttime routine is quite good - bath, dark room, story, bottle etc...

I usually recommend this for older toddlers but you say she is toddler like so... Would she lie down still and listen to an audiobook or CBeebies radio?

That's a good idea - we were thinking maybe proper music rather than just white noise etc, something to calm her down... just entering another night of it now, only the fourth to be fair... pray for me!

My friend used Fleetwood Mac albums to sleep train her kids 😊

That's a good idea. I just played her a song that she usually falls asleep to (Want You In My Room by Carly Rae Jepsen) and she got up in her cot and started dancing :(

I think it's tricky when they get a sense of I don't have to lie down and sleep, I can do what I want.

Does she need you in there with her or can you leave her to do her own thing?

If you need to stay, can you read a book, phone or something silently to yourself in the corner and ignore her so she just winds herself down without attention? Then if/when she gets upset or wants comforting you can try sshing and stroking in the cot?

@MonkeySounds

That's a good idea. I just played her a song that she usually falls asleep to (Want You In My Room by Carly Rae Jepsen) and she got up in her cot and started dancing :(

Doh!
Maybe music is too exciting and it needs to be a more boring audiobook then.

We’re sleep training our 13 (just) month old right now. I would advise going in at longer and longer intervals once she actually starts crying (you said “after an hour and a half she starts crying and gets hysterical as she gets more tired” - are you going in and out during that first 90mins?). No talking, no light on, no lifting her out, just a shush, a “sleep time now” or whatever your sleep phrase is, kiss and leave. No more than 30s. Intervals of 2-4-6-8-10-15 etc mins, between going in.

Mine isn’t lively like your DD but he is huge for his age. Also, stop letting her drop off on the bottle- change the routine and do the last feed in a different room if you have to, but it should be with light on etc, and then rouse her for her goodnight kiss and to go into the cot. I breastfeed still but the same principle applies- always put them down awake.

Thanks Goostacean - yes, I was going in and out during the 90 or so minutes when she is relatively calm and not crying too hard. I would go in when she started to cry, then she would settle again. Repeat for 1.5 hours. But then when she gets to the full-on stage, she won't even be comforted by patting or shushing so we gave up.

Then I tried the method of lying next to her cot but not looking at her, only shushing when she got up again and helping her lie down. Again, she remained relatively calm and then lost it after about an hour and a half.

Maybe I'm comforting too much, cuddling and settling her, and not walking out quickly enough - how are you finding it with your 13 month old? What kind of time frame have you given yourself to work on this? Maybe it takes longer than we thought.

Bertiebotts - thanks, maybe I should try to be quieter and sit further away. It's that weird thing of wanting them to know you're there, for it to be effective, but not wanting to engage too much.

Honestly, if the patpat thing is taking 90min and still not working I'd just bite the bullet and spend a week on CC. None of the gentle stuff worked for us, DD was just pissed we were there with her but not playing.

Have you ever tried ASMR videos, Monkeysounds? Try finding a few ASMR artists that you feel might work for her. As a starting point, maybe try Latte ASMR, she is very sweet and gentle. Start watching them with her during quiet day periods then put them on at bedtime. It does work for some people, children included, hopefully it will work for your little one.

How long are you giving her after she starts crying? I start timing from when baby actually starts crying- so from then it’s 2min. Again if I leave and baby is quiet, wait for crying, then 3-4 mins after go in. I wouldn’t go in immediately as you’re rewarding the behaviour, and then yeah after 1.5h baby is like, okay, game’s over, now I WANT REAL ATTENTION.

I’m expecting 3 days to a week of heavy lifting on this. Although DH is the one getting up! Do you breastfeed?

Tonight will be night two, so we’ll see how it goes. Even at morning nap time, I settled post-milk then baby started crying but settled instantly when DH went up 5ish mins later. Was hoping it would be me coming up, clearly, but is starting to accept his fate 😂 Cried a bit after DH left but was asleep within 10mins after that. Out of character, usually he goes down without a peep- and he’s much clingier than usual to me today, but we have to press on. I have a relatively tough role, long hours, and I can’t function with 3-4 wakings a night; it’s starting to affect my performance at work. It’s hard in the small hours, I adore him and can’t bear him crying... but it’s to everyone’s benefit to be well rested.

How’s it going, @MonkeySounds?

Hello! Sorry for my late reply - it's such a blur as I've been up 2-5am with her the last two nights running and I'm a bit out of my mind. Last night we managed to get her to sleep by rubbing her back, but at 2am, she was standing in the cot and wouldn't lie down - crying with my partner until I came in from the other room. I went through every possible way to get her to sleep, at least twice, between 2 and 5 - she kept her eyes open while jiggling (she's too heavy for me to do it but it used to work); she finished milk without sleeping, and she wouldn't settle with rubbing and patting. So I don't know what is going on.

Tonight she fell asleep in the cot while drowsy from milk (another big progress like last night's patting) and then woke hysterical half an hour later. My partner couldn't soothe her - she was sobbing and all puffy; I took over and had to take her into a light room to cheer her up; then eventually got her to sleep by jiggling. I'm dreading tonight as it really affects my brain when I've been up three hours straight over night.

So... all in all, that's where we are after four nights incredibly gentle sleep training. I think we are going to seek some help from someone who can come and see her one evening. We are just so tired from months of it now - not as bad as some people, I know.

I really hope your plan is going well - sounds like it is, if you can get your son to nap in the day from falling asleep naturally - that's huge!

Thanks Ohallrighthen - re the control crying, my concern is that she very quickly gets inconsolable for some reason and it just escalates. It happened tonight when she just woke up!

Painterinperil - ASMR sounds like a good tip. I feel like those kind of things could well work on her when we know a bit more what is going on x

Do you think she could be teething maybe?

She didn't have the usual signs apart from a lot of spit - not angsty or holding her gums. But it could be. It could explain that overnight "party", but they are relatively common...

Oh my goodness, so sorry to hear it. We’ve been okay... second night he cried for a while but wasn’t as angry as the first night. Night 3 was awake 4-5, whinging etc but not crying as such. Last night was awake 5-6 (so it’s getting later and later at least...) fussing but then slept til 7.30am. So we will persevere. DH is tired but I’m not giving in- I’ve been doing this for a year, a week won’t hurt him! Hoping we can crack it by the weekend and get that mythical 7-7...

It's really good to hear that your DH is doing it - that seems to be quite a trap with the sleep stuff, for me at least; because of BF it naturally fell to me to settle her over night. Then suddenly you turn round after a year and you realise that you should have shared the settling out months ago. We didn't realise! Good luck - it seems to be working...!

Yeah, same. That’s why I’m quite cross that he’s whinging about a few nights of poor sleep- what a joke!!

Last night baby went through til 6.20am but did then cry for a good while despite DH resettling. However, 7.15-6.20 is fantastic, especially given last week I was up about 4 times a night with him between 11-6!!
How are you getting on?

Is the room pitch black?