Strong willed girl

[CMC10]

Hi my little girl is 4 and I feel like since the day she’s been born she’s been hard work, she’s so constant, strong willed and controlling, I feel suffocated most of the time as she’s doesn’t give me 5 minutes, I do my best as a mum but I always feel like I’m failing? I’ve got a son who is 10 and I have constant mum guilt to him as she just just so demanding it’s draining, does anyone know any techniques or books to help? Thanks x

Can't really advise if you don't specify the issue. You just say strong willed and controlling . What do you mean?

I have one like this. It's her personality. It is tiring but she is going to be a strong woman when she grows up.

We call her contrary Mary, but we embrace her as our own. She is loving and funny and full on. She's 7 now and luckily I have been able to teach her how to do many things herself, so she doesn't need to demand from me so much.

I thought that but didn’t know how to edit once sent, So from the moment she wakes up she’s on the go, she can go from 6am-7pm or longer without resting unless it’s screen time. She doesn’t sit still, doesn’t eat tea much as she’s too busy onto the next thing, she gets extremely jealous if I spend time with my son/ her brother or nephew and if I’m on the phone she’s tries to climb on my head, just in my face and can have tantrums several time’s a day where she can scream for 20 min. I can play with her for ages but it’s never enough, she always wants more. If she needs a wee I will try and prompt her to go to the bathroom alone but she wants me , she even forces a BM out some days so I will come and be there to wipe her. I feel like bedtimes have been on and off but lately she’s starting to get up and out of bed again and scream when I’m not there, she just wants me but I’ve got to see to her brother and tidy around before bed. She can be so lovely all day and then come bedtime once we have got clean, calm and books, I say goodnight and have a cuddle and then she tries hitting me and screaming, I’m just at a loss with her tbh, I don’t know what I’m doing for the best

You are the adult. You are the boss. You need to be more strong-willed than she is and put your foot down.

At the moment she's got you absolutely wrapped round her little finger and has you running ragged after her all the time. You need to stop giving in to all that nonsense . (Assuming she is NT of course).

Sorry, but some seriously tough love assertive parenting is needed here.

I can play with her for ages but it's never enough, she always wants more - well basically it needs to be hard cheese from now on. You make the rules, not her. She can't have what she wants all the time. She's a little kid and she doesn't get to make the rules, you do.

Gird your loins OP - you can do it.

assuming she is neurotypical of course

I have one child very like this and we have ended up with an ADHD and ASD with PDA diagnosis.

Being 'the boss' has never and will never work with our DC, in fact it caused a lot of damage. Please be gentle with your little girl and avoid conflict or you could end up with bigger problems and a subsequent loss of her confidence and self-esteem.

Look up some of the PDA parenting strategies as they work very well with all sorts of (less straightforward) children, even if they feel counter-intuitive. Go with her interests and if you can get some help even if just for a few hours a week where someone else plays with her then you can give more attention to your older one.

Good luck, I know just how exhausting this can be, try and take good care of yourself and your energy.

We are ill prepared when it comes to what is expected from a parent. We know we have to teach to walk, talk and eat, but somewhat the fact that we also need to teach control of emotions, patience and boundaries is a reality that hits us quite hard.

You have to become firm while staying calm and kind. She is 4 so on one had it will be harder to start now with rules but on the other hadn't she has an understanding of what you are telling her.
Learning that things don't always go your way is an unpleasant but extremely important lesson for children.
"Right now I can't", "go and play in your room and I will come soon" and ignore tantrums. DO not comfort her if she has a tantrum (one comforts a child when something is worth comforting like hurting herself, not because she has a crisis. Be clear, we are going to read 3 books now but after that I need to do other things. I have already played with you, now I am with your brother for a bit. and so on.
Do not feel bad if you say no. And she tried to hit you. You grab her arm and say that if she ever hits you or her brother her .... insert preferred toy name ... will go in the bin. Tell her you understands she is angry, but sadly right now, she has to play, read , colour on her own, and that being angry is never an excuse to hurt someone.

A last point, screens, especially hand held ones (phones, iPad, ..) have a terrible negative impact on irritability, short fuse, excitability, attention, so maybe weaning her for a week might be hard for you in the short term but very helpful long term.

I was thinking ADHD as well. High activity/energy all day followed by evening meltdowns from being physically tired but your brain won’t shut off and let you rest. I’d get your DD assessed OP.

Before going by the armchair diagnoses you have received here, try to set some boundaries. Do you have a partner or family? If so it’s perfectly ok to leave her with them and take your son away out of the house to get some time away from her. With regards to forcing a bowel movement out I would start trying to help her learn how to wipe them herself - she’s going to start school soon if she hasn’t already and so needs to learn. Keep some wetwipes in the toilet for her.

I hope it works out.

I agree with @sosotired1.

My dd was just like this. Extremely high needs as a child. Now, a mid teen and has just been diagnosed with ADHD. ASD is also suspected by the Educational Psychologist.

I suggest making a precise list of your concerns, with specific examples, and make an appointment with your GP. Ask for a referral to the community paediatrician. Be prepared to be turned down, but at least you will have your concerns on record.

Have school/nursery expressed any concerns?

She sounds like my DD op and I also suspect ADHD, many people have said to me ignore the tantrums and she will stop, doesn't work with this child. We have also tried everything. I try and make sure she isn't overstimulated, although that's not always possible is it. For example we went out yesterday so today I've kept her in all day as I know she's exhausted but she just won't rest.

I had a very similar situation with DS who is now 8. From the moment he could make a noise at 6 months he just shouted all day long, was incredibly demanding and strong willed. He exhibited behaviours that were very in line with autism and adhd - sensory issues, impulsivity, etc. I learnt to adapt to his needs and this became normalised - when talking to friends about the things I did, I realised that what was normal for me was actually far from the norm.

I spoke to my GP who told me that I needed to set stricter boundaries - I was furious. I am a primary school teacher and I have many years of experience with boundaries. Equally I have an older son who didn't have these issues with exactly the same parenting. DS would have 45 minute tantrums at the age of 5 and 6 with me physically restraining him the whole time from punching me in the face.

I did try to get him referred for an assessment (school also recognised the issues). I didn't get a referral for two years. During this time I absolutely stuck with my boundaries. I also learnt to give him control - e.g. give him two options for everything. This took a long time to work but eventually it did. I also learnt to accept his feelings - it is important to validate your child's emotions and give them names. For example if they say they are hot and it is a freezing day, you say that you understand they feel hot right now but it is very cold outside. Therefore you will carry their coat and when they feel cold they can ask for it.

A really good book to read is The explosive child. It really helped me. My DS is now 8 and there are no issues at all. He literally grew out of it. He can rationalise his feelings and knows why he is feeling something. He is empathetic and if he has a moment of frustration he comes to me afterwards and talks about it.

This too shall pass.

‘You are the adult. You are the boss. You need to be more strong-willed than she is and put your foot down’

Says the person who can only have never had a child like this!!! I have 2. One was a dream and one wasn’t!

I have one. She’s 14 now, but God she was just like this. Demanding, strong willed, stubborn, and persistent beyond endurance. Punishments and putting foot down never worked, they made her worse.

What did work?

Rewards were by far the best method of controlling the behaviour.
Reading The Explosive Chimd and the Highky Sensitive Child.
Picking battles carefully and ignoring the trivial. We used to call her the Tasmanian Devil

Watershed moment was at age 9, when it became apparent that a lot of her behaviour was anxiety driven. That made things much clearer. She doesn’t have ASd nor ODD. She’s just inflexible, sensitive,anxious and so bloody persistent.
Sleep training😂😂😂😂what a joke that was. ‘Most children adapt within 3 days’😂😂😁4 weeks later...,

Now: she’s lovely. She always was, but got much more biddable as she got older. She’s funny, clever, loving, friendly and hardworking. Hates Boris, loves Billy Eilyish. She’s an absolute ⭐️

I bet your Dd has anxiety. Almost guaranteed that is the problem. We didn’t recognise if, but when we did it was like the scales fell from our eyes.

Good luck

I would say I’m quite a firm mum and do stay firm, I use the time out technique when needed and when I say I’m playing for 30 mins and I set an alarm to warn her when it goes off , I go and do the cleaning or tea/dinner etc she gets up to mischief, so she squirts my face cream out or destroys things , eats lipstick or picks eyeshadows and then comes and tells me, she’s always looking for a reaction. @sosotired1 I feel like what you have said is why I’m scared if I’m too harsh on her, I have thought for a while now that she could have ADHD and so does my sister but I don’t know, how did you know? She’s always been very advance since she was small, always seemed older. Would children with adhd act different with other people? I don’t want to compress her or destroy her confidence or self esteem, I’ll have a look at them , thank you! @LeGrandBleu we really don’t think of this side. I do that but it’s never enough and I don’t back down but she doesn’t respond well to it, she’s better with empathy and coddling, but it’s relentless and frustrating. She also started to say I used to love her and now I hate her? Which I’ve never said . Once our neighbour knocked to see if I was ok because the tantrums can be that bad. She’s been upset lately too when seeing her dad of a weekend( she sees him for around 4-5 hours) and demands to come back if she thinks I’m going out somewhere, but doesn’t mind if I’m home cleaning ( she actually says that)?!

I have one of these. It is exhausting. The continuous talking with a loud voice from 6am until 7pm is draining then when you add in the running, jumping, flinging himself around.

I send him out for a run around the block at 7am so I can have coffee in silence. I have him rynning, cycling, playing sports anything to try to tire him out. Nothing works

Zero screen time during the week, limited at weekends no computers games.

He knows all the boundaries but has to push them all. If he finds one bit of weakness all he'll breaks loose.

He is very bright, popular i n school.

You have my sympathies. We are currently read a book together called hey warrior, it's factual about how the brain works and to use breathing to when you feel anxious or angry. He relates to fact based books more than stories.

We are trying yoga and breathing/mindfulness to try and deal with tantrums and emotional meltdowns.

You can't ignore him as his tantrums are throwing, kicking punching. I have locked him in the back garden, or locked myself in the bathroom. With him kicking the door for 2 hours before he calms down.

Mostly he is lovely though especially when he is in school

I have a five year old DD who is the same. Very contrary. If you say something factual, she will say 'no it isn't' even though she knows nothing about it, she'll insist she's right! Also thinks it's fine to do things in her own time rather than when she's asked to, doesn't let fifteen seconds go by without saying 'mummy...' and although sometimes she will go and play on her own, generally, if you're not entertaining her, she can be found parkouring round the living room.
DP uses the 321 technique which does work with the threat of a toy being taken away. I say 'I'm going to say this nicely one more time...' with the threat of a fierce voice. It's not ideal at all! Generally, distraction is what works with her though, capture her attention away from the thing she's not supposed to be doing by talking about something totally different. And having a sense of humour. And wearing her out with exercise!

My DD aged 4 is pretty similar. Always been very high needs since she was a baby. Constantly talking and on the go from the moment she wakes up to when she goes to sleep. Constantly wants to play, even if you've been playing for hours it's never enough, becomes very attention seeking when you don't play any does naughty things for attention. It's exhausting. I did suspect ADHD but she is an angel at school, really well behaved, calm, very bright etc and able to concentrate for a decent length of time if engaged. I've tried a couple of things recently and have noticed a slight change starting to happen. I've eliminated fruit shoots (she used to have 2 a day) and any foods with e numbers from her diet, I've put stricter limits on screen time and filtering what she watches. She is no longer allowed to watch you tube as it's so fast paced and stimulating I think it has an effect on them. She can only watch feature length disney type movies (1 a day) or 2 ceebeebies shows with an educational element like number blocks etc. I've also been much better at ignoring the bad behaviour and not engaging with the backchat or arguments. She thrives on attention so take away the attention and she's learned that the only attention she will ever get will be for positive behaviour.

@TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince

‘You are the adult. You are the boss. You need to be more strong-willed than she is and put your foot down’

Says the person who can only have never had a child like this!!! I have 2. One was a dream and one wasn’t!

I have one. She’s 14 now, but God she was just like this. Demanding, strong willed, stubborn, and persistent beyond endurance. Punishments and putting foot down never worked, they made her worse.

What did work?

Rewards were by far the best method of controlling the behaviour.
Reading The Explosive Chimd and the Highky Sensitive Child.
Picking battles carefully and ignoring the trivial. We used to call her the Tasmanian Devil

Watershed moment was at age 9, when it became apparent that a lot of her behaviour was anxiety driven. That made things much clearer. She doesn’t have ASd nor ODD. She’s just inflexible, sensitive,anxious and so bloody persistent.
Sleep training😂😂😂😂what a joke that was. ‘Most children adapt within 3 days’😂😂😁4 weeks later...,

Now: she’s lovely. She always was, but got much more biddable as she got older. She’s funny, clever, loving, friendly and hardworking. Hates Boris, loves Billy Eilyish. She’s an absolute ⭐️

I bet your Dd has anxiety. Almost guaranteed that is the problem. We didn’t recognise if, but when we did it was like the scales fell from our eyes.

Good luck

Says the person who can only have never had a child like this!!!

I'm not sitting here commenting from my ivory tower, I'm talking from a position of personal experience.

Fair enough!

But it never worked for me!

I had a child like this, it's VERY tough as they are simply not as easily manipulated or motivated as more easygoing kids! I used to cry at how little pleasure I got from my own child.

Assuming she's definitely NT (I'm sure there will be other approaches if not) my advice is:

Set clear visual parameters in advance. So you play with her, but before you start you tell her that "when this hand gets to X" on the clock it's time to stop. Same applies if you need her to wait.

What is her driver/"reward"? With my son it was food. Clear warning - "do X again and you'll have no pudding", and follow through. It was a real motivator. If your DDs is play, then say you won't play with her the rest of the day.

Temper tantrums, I would shut down immediately and take kid straight to their room, no debate. They can scream and dick about but you don't need to listen to it.
You explain that when she's ready to be quiet she can come out. If she's there ages so be it. At 4 she knows how to get herself released. My son soon stopped the tantrum as soon as he started up the stairs!

For something truly defiant and naughty, bin a favoured toy. Just do it and let them think it's gone. You can always retrieve and hide it away for a future date (not too close) and make out you've bought another as a reward for being good.

Praise is the HUGE one. In the well-behaved moments where you're actually less aware of her, remember to praise her and really gush. She wants a reaction as you said - give her the reaction when she's being GOOD. Take her to the cupboard and say "you've been playing so quietly for mummy you may choose a little treat". Surprise her with the odd toy after work. Suggest an extra game or bedtime story. Never as a bribe, only as a proactive response to good behavior. She will learn that she gets more from mummy by being good.

It's never as easy as it looks on paper and god knows their will is strong! Just always remember you are the parent, you have the power - treat her with kindness and affection most of the time so she's never in any doubt of your love - but don't be afraid to be harsh. Your daughter will get the best of YOU in the long run and be happier for it.

FWIW my child was a little devil for about 6 months but the above really made a difference. He still has the strong temperament (no bad thing!) but is very well behaved now.

Does she get on with her brother at all? Do they play together? Are their activities you can do to encourage the sibling bond so she’s not wanting you all the time? I know it’s a bit of a tricky age gap but is there another they both like? Pizza making? Baking? Arts and crafts?

I personally wouldn’t go for the ‘discipline’ route (hate that word), as I think it can make your relationship worse. Obviously pull her up on bad behaviour but if it is minor don’t escalate it. I’d go for the positive approach. ‘You’re such a good girl sitting nicely while I speak on the phone, you’re so clever and independent I know you can do x y, I can’t wait to spend time with you tomorrow and I know your brother wants to spend time with us too’

Is there anything you can do about the situation with her Dad? Does she not stay over?

You can put a post it on the clock so it is very obvious when the big hand gets to whatever number.

Hi there, I knew that we may have some developmental differences due to ASD and ADHD on both sides of the family. I had also done some research for different reasons and it was very clear to me that my DC - who is excellent at 'masking' and behaves differently in different settings - had some issues. I pushed very hard for diagnosis initially with very little support from school etc. as they couldn't see it for a long time. Please do your own reading and research and try some different strategies to see what works in practise.

Please be very careful of taking too much parenting advice on the general boards on Mumsnet, you might be better on the SEN boards where there is more experience with children with challenges. It might be well-meaning but could also be very unhelpful. Most of all, trust your own instincts.

Hi, I know this post was a few years ago, but just wondered how your little girl is now?
I'm going through exactly the same with my daughter, I could have actually written this post myself. :)

This my post under an old name.

My dd was diagnosed as ASD at 16