Is this normal for 3/4 year olds

[Jointheteam]

My daughter will be 4 next month and I’m finding her a real challenge.

I try to do what I can to play with her 1-1, offer her choices but I find myself unable to say no to her without a meltdown which includes screaming and hitting me.

For example I will play with her and when I need to stop to go & get ready/cook etc she will scream and cry and absolutely refuse to play herself.

My morning consists of a waking up, getting her breakfast sorted then after breakfast she wants to play so I’ll play for 10-15 mins but then I need to get ready. She’ll kick off.

She wakes up so early so there’s no chance I can get up before her. I bought her a gro clock and tell her to wait until the sun is up before coming into me but she absolutely refuses. I don’t set it late - half 6 so not like I’m expecting a long lie.

If I don’t give her chocolate cheerios for breakfast she will throw herself on the floor screaming and crying. I try to keep the chocolate cereal for once a week on a Saturday as a treat. Then she’ll agree to shreddies and as I go to sit down and eat mine she’ll say “actually I want weetabix”. Sometimes I’ll just say ok and switch her breakfast because I know if I say no I’ll be in for screaming and hitting.

Also there is my phone. She wants it constantly. She won’t agree to get ready unless she’s alllowed to watch my phone. If I want to do her hair she’ll demand my phone. In the car she wants my phone. If I say no shell kick scream and hit. It won’t stop.

This morning I got up at 6:15 with her. We go downstairs and sort breakfast. She asks for chocolate cheerios I say no remember they are for weekends only. She has bad bowels and cannot eat too much “junk” food so I try to limit her junk food.

This results in 10 minutes of screaming. Then she finally calms down and eats her shreddies. After that she asks me to play with her so we go onto the floor and play. In the back of my mind I really need to be getting showered and hanging up a washing but I know if I say no she’ll make my life hell.

After 10 minutes I say ok I’m going to go and shower you continue playing. She says no and asks for my phone. To avoid a further meltdown and allow me to shower I agree to give her my phone to play her apps whilst I shower.

Once I’m showered I say it’s time up on the phone and time to get her ready. She throws an epic tantrum and hits me, screams etc.

This goes on for the full time she’s getting ready, hair done, teeth brushed and journey to nursery.

I also have a primary school child to try and get ready and to school. I cannot take it anymore.

After nursery she’ll come home and demand certain snacks (mainly junk food which I don’t have). I’ll offer her fruit, yoghurt etc and she’ll kick off.

If I leave her unattended to cook dinner she’ll annoy her brother by sitting on him, and just being generally annoying. She’ll demand to watch the things she wants on tv and he has zero say. If they can’t agree she will stamp on him, kick and hit him.

When my OH says good morning to him she’ll respond with an annoyed tone. She is just generally miserable and rude and I’m really, really struggling.

My son in comparison was and is never like this. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong, how I can change or if this is just normal.

Should I be expected to play with her at every waking minute? How do I cook/shower without her demanding my time and attention? How do I remove the phone after a set period?

I find it easier to just give her what she wants but I feel like it’s making the situation worse.

Any words of wisdom?

I have a very strong willed 4 year old and have been struggling massively over the last few weeks. So you’re not on your own.

Somethings that have worked for her are....

Using a visual timer (an app on my phone) to time things. Eg I will play until the timer goes off. She seems to accept that more than me ending the play time.

Using the timer to show when it’s mummy time. The. Explaining I play with her after
Mummy time.

I did a family kindness sticker chart. So any tome someone was kind someone could give them a sticker for the chart. That worked well to encouragement my daughter to be kind but also to recognise kindness in others (eg daddy did something nice for you so shall we give him a sticker). Then we did a fun picnic when our chart was full. That worked well......I need to do it again actually as I hadn’t thought I’ve going back to it since we’ve been struggling again.

I’ll be following in hopes of getting tips from others.

As for the phone thing. Personally I’d probably take it away completely for a week or two and then maybe introduce it with only very strict boundaries (if at all).

She sounds like DS1 was at that age, it was utterly exhausting and miserable. He was later diagnosed with ADHD.

I would ask for help. I know it's not that easy but I wish I had - instead I just tried to go on and I think it massively damaged our relationship because I couldn't ever spend time with him without him demanding more and more and more. Even now (he is 11) I have to ration things and say OK - let's play two rounds of this board game, or we'll read for twenty minutes, because I know what the limits of my patience are. It makes me really sad because I would love to have an organic relationship with him but instead I find I have to set out and explain the terms of any activity we do together in advance. Now he is used to this he accepts it mostly without whining for more, and it is better because it means we can actually do things together now. It doesn't stop me feeling like super bitch worst mum ever for stopping something we're having a lovely time doing because we've reached the end of the time I agreed to, though.

But anyway - that is a strategy I found useful. Before you start anything explain what the terms of it are. Ideally for a 4yo you do it in numbers of whatever the activity is - two episodes of Peppa/three more slides/four stories/whatever - rather than minutes, because it's difficult for them to understand minutes. Or I used to say I will help you build your train track, but then I'm going downstairs to clean the kitchen (or whatever), you can play with it by yourself. Whether he would play or not was never really guaranteed but it was something.

I always thought he would have been better off with a sibling, but maybe not does she ever play nicely with her brother at all?

Is she like this at nursery too?

This all sounds very difficult and I really feel for you. I have a 4 year old and his behaviour has been fairly challenging since his whole routine has changed from lockdown and introducing a baby brother.

The one thing I noticed from your post is that sometimes you give in to her demands, and sometimes you don’t. I think you’ve got to try and be consistent. So she has the cereal you give her, don’t swap it because she’s changed her mind. She has the phone for certain things, and not just because in that moment you can’t deal with a tantrum. It’s confusing for her if sometimes you give in and sometimes you don’t. And if she knows she kicks off enough you will give her what she wants she will play on that.

Obviously it’s not right that she hits you and you need to tell her in a firm voice that she is not to do that. But otherwise, if it’s just screaming and noise I would leave her to it and get on and do what you need to. Perhaps change your mornings, so you get your jobs done, showered etc first and then you have time to play with her. That way she’s not halfway through a game with you and then you get up and leave.

What consequences does she have for her actions? You say she stamps on her brother - what do you do when she does this? It sounds like she rules the roost and she needs to have some consequences for her behaviour.

I agree with a timer for things to help her when something comes to an end. I always give mine time warnings and stick to them. Sticker charts might work, or jars that you can fill with pebbles. Add a pebble for good behaviour and remove one for bad. At the end of the week there can be a reward for a certain amount. But you have to make it achievable otherwise it won’t work.

Hope things start to improve. What is her behaviour like at nursery? Can they work with you to help improve things at home?

My four year old can be like this with the wanting constant attention. He will try it on with screaming tantrums too. When these happen I now refuse to engage and tell him I won’t play with him till he calms down. So if he threw himself on the floor about the cereal I would probably say no breakfast until he sits at the table nicely. He has a gro clock which he uses well - in the past if he went out of his room early I would keep putting him back in his room. He is allowed to play in there till it comes on.

It’s hard though, it’s so tempting to give in to their demands when you’re in a hurry and need to be places.

Oof, I sympathise. It's a difficult age. My 3yo DS has started to show some similar behaviours recently. It seems that his answer to everything is no at the moment (and he actually growls when he doesn't get his way ).

Some things that work for us:

• Very clear and simple consequences for bad behaviour eg hitting, jumping on sofa, shouting at baby brother - he goes on the naughty chair for 3 minutes. Then we ask for an apology. No apology - stay on the chair for another 3 minutes. Or step, wherever. Just make sure it's boring and you NEVER give in and let her off without the apology. (When we started this aged 2, he once stayed on it for 40 minutes. But we got the apology and he knows we mean business. Rare to go over one time-out now)
• tantrums NEVER get what they want. Ignore, ignore, ignore. Say you will discuss it when she calms down and carry on with another activity.
• try to avoid giving her an opportunity to say no or kick off. So I will say 'lunch is ready' not 'do you want lunch?' or 'please eat lunch'. If she won't sit down to eat, reply pleasantly that she can choose to sit at the table or on the naughty chair. And follow through.
• Be breezy when you go to do your own thing. And deflect. 'I want you to play NOW' 'Yes dear but mummy's hair is dirty - do you like dirty hair?' Sing a daft song, do a silly walk - but go and don't let her stop you.
• Make vídeo time a treat to be earned with good behaviour. So if she lets you brush her hair, THEN she gets the video. Not during.

Good luck. It sounds like maybe your DS was a bit more easy-going, but some kids need firmer boundaries.

I sympathise as 3-4 year old girls are hard work. As an owner of one, I have tried to maintain a ‘I mean what I say’ standpoint.
My dh has not! So for me, if she asks for something that I will eventually give in over, I give in immediately. If giving her your phone will keep her happy while you have a shower then go for it. Don’t make her tantrum for it. Then stand your ground on other things. Pick your battles.
As others have said use timers, be consistent, don’t put up with hitting.

My dh gives in a lot, so he gets a lot of shouting and crying that I just can’t put up with.

I appreciate the PP may find the naughty chair works, but its a very outdated tool, and one that has been widely disregarded. Please don’t follow this advice.
Google gentle parenting techniques?

I dont know anyone who actually managed to get a gro-clock to work. Great idea, but only for compliant children. Do not feel bad about this not working.

Address one thing at a time and keep coming back here if you need reassurance. You can do this

Yes. My very strong willed DD started this behaviour around the same age. I'm afraid to say that it lasted for quite a long time.. she's 10 now and I think we're just about out the other side 😂
I strongly recommend the book 123 Magic. I wish I'd discovered it sooner. Good luck!

That does sound like really hard work and quite extreme.

I have a 4 and a half year old boy and he's definitely gotten easier since I would say not long after turning 4, so hopefully you'll find the same with your DD. 3-4 is a tricky age.

Lots of things you say sound just like my DS - the wanting to be played with all the time, annoying her brother (sounds like she's doing it for attention/when she's bored? My DS bugs his baby brother when he's bored and is looking for attention); the grumpiness in the mornings sometimes (this has definitely gotten better).

But I think what sounds like it's the more extreme end to me is the complete meltdowns every time. My DS will still whinge and moan and grump now when he doesn't get his own way, but I do find firmness works and generally these are short lived. I don't give in though, which I know is hard.

Things I found worked when DS was at his trickiest age was the How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen book. These days I use timers on Alexa, so 10 minutes playing on the tablet, when the timer goes off its tablet off. I also use consequences/rewards so if he does things like get dressed with no fuss, he gets 10 mins on the tablet afterwards. Fuss or not getting dressed = no tablet. I stand firm no matter how hard it is / upset he is; once I say something I don't go back on it. I acknowledge his feelings eg you're sad you're not having tablet time/we have to go home from the park etc, but I'm really no nonsense about it and ignore his histrionics. Most of the time they're pretty short lived.

Good luck!

Thanks all.

We had a day off together just us today. She woke up at 5:30am miserable as she was tired. Went downstairs and started with the fussing about breakfast. Slamming the cupboard door as I didn’t have a cereal she wanted.

Then time to get ready. I had ironed her clothes last night but she was adamant she wasn’t wearing them. Sometimes I think oh just let her pick her clothes but I finally got her to wear the ironed outfit.

Then she starts crying her arms are cold. So I offer a cardigan but she demands a jumper which is far too small for her. I put it on anyway as I’m just too busy and need to get out the door.

I ask her to come and do her hair and she says no and runs away. I count to 3 and say if she doesn’t she will go into her room for time out. She refuses so into her room she went. She kicked the door repeatedly, screamed at the top of her lungs and threw her books everywhere. After 3 minutes she came out, still refused to do her hair so we left with unbrushed hair.

Honestly I could cry with how constant it is.

I usually give her my phone in the car as she falls asleep otherwise but today I said no, no more phone. She was sleeping by 10am, which was fine as it was so early it didn’t impact bedtime but usually she can’t sleep as when I collect her from nursery it is too close to bedtime but she is absolutely miserable otherwise.

After I stuck to my guns that due to her continuous behaviour this morning there was no phone today. She accepted that (surprisingly) and chatted in the car and generally seemed more upbeat (maybe the nap helped).

I surprised myself by how I could stick to something and she accepted it. I thought she would have beat me up and trashed the car but she said ok I’ll be better tomorrow mummy

Iv read your post purely oh of interest... the one thing that sticks out for me is that she seems to be getting up far to early.
My 4 year old sometimes wake up at 6.30/7 (because of my 1 year old) and it's far to early for him which puts him in a rubbish mood for the whole day. Maybe getting her to sleep in later could help.
I definitely think sleep/over tiredness is playing a part x

Well done OP, it's such hard work sometimes. I feel like I've had respite from my DS for a good few months now, and he can still be tricky but last year/very early this year some days felt relentless.

As a pp has said I personally don't use time outs. I used to, and did for well over a year. But it never worked, ever.

In your situation with breakfast, I would've tried something like saying calmly "Mummy can't/doesn't want to make breakfast for a little girl who is cross and slamming doors. When I see a calm girl I will make breakfast." And go about making your own etc. I have no experience of having to brush hair luckily as I only have boys, but I would've maybe turned that into a reward, so if you get dressed and hair brushed NICELY in x minutes, you can watch a bit of TV/play on my phone.

Children can sense when we are stressed / in a hurry though and I think I'll probably get a reality check when school starts in a couple of weeks! I haven't had to rush out of the house at all and I did used to find nursery mornings really stressful pre lockdown.

Could you put on a kids story or music in the car instead of your phone?

So what time do everyone's 3 year olds get up/go to sleep?

Mine wakes up 630-7. Ideally she'd be asleep by 730 but if I have to rely on my husband for any part of the dinner/bed routine its more like 830. That's definitely too late for her

I would suggest speaking to the health visitor, as it does sound a bit extreme. It may just be a phase, but if it isn't, you'll be better off getting help as soon as possible.

Try to take the power out of her tantrums. So for example, if she kicks off about the breakfast cereal just say oh dear I can see you are upset about the cereal, let me know when you are ready to eat the shreddies and I'll pour them out. Then start doing your hair/washing up/reading the news or whatever, making clear that her tantrum is not affecting you in any way.

At that age I would let her pick her clothes to be honest. Or at least choose from 2 outfits. (But then I also wouldn't iron clothes especially for nursery!)

I'd also encourage her to help herself to cereal, can you put it into something she can pour herself? Put out two kinds that she can have and let her choose (or mix them as my kids are obsessed with doing). It's possible that a bit more independence and feeling of control would be good for her and the tantrumming is her railing against feeling like she has no control.

Can you introduce any other measures to give her a feeling of independence and control? Timers might help with this if she helps set them.

I think you are 100% correct to be sticking to your guns and following through with things that matter (ie kicking, rudeness etc) but as a PP said, pick your battles. Some things are just not worth the fight. Focus on what's important to you. Good luck!

I don't think it's necessary to judge other parents who use time out. It works well for many.

What I would say is, if you're going to use time out, use it sparingly and only for things that are real no-nos. For example I would use it for hitting and in extremis refusing to brush teeth (essential) but not for refusing to brush hair. And if you do use it, you need to be prepared to follow through and not stop until she says sorry. Then big hugs and move on.

My DS has (gorgeous) long curly hair and also hates having it brushed. This is how it usually goes with us:
Me; Time to brush your hair!
DS: I don't like brushing hair!
Me: It'll only take a minute (attempt to put him on my lap - this sometimes works if he's watching TV)
DS: No! (Runs away)
Me: Hair. Now!
DS: No!
Me: Oh dear, would you rather get it all cut off?
DS: Er....
Me: I'll take you to the hairdresser today then
DS: No!
Me: So would you rather go to the hairdresser or brush your hair?
DS hesitates, I scoop him up and start brushing.
Me: It won't take a minute, why don't you count to 20? One... two... three
DS: counts 4-12 fast, struggles a bit with 13, by the time he's got to 20 hair is brushed.

Or you could just get it cut short! If she doesn't like it she'll probably be more compliant with brushing next time.

Definitely look at sleep times as well. My DS stopped napping just after 2, now bed is around 7 and up around 7.

In general give choices wherever you can. Do you want Shreddies or toast? Milk or yoghurt drink? Brush teeth first or hair? Avoid questions to which the answer can be 'no'!!

One last thing - I wouldn't use her bedroom for timeout or anywhere she can trash things. Bottom step of the stairs is ideal. Or just a chair at the end of the dining table with no toys in reach. If she gets down, calmly put her back until she does her 3 minutes or whatever time you are doing. At the end explain why you put her in timeout, get an apology and then hugs and forget about it.

If this comes across judgey, I don't mean it to be.
I have a DD, older now, who was a bit like this, still is to a degree.
But it sounds like your DD is ruling the roost and she has all the power in these tense situations. She knows you will give her what she wants for an easy life so will ramp up the screaming etc until she gets it.
I agree absolutely with PPs that you have to try and reset things and be consistent.
What worked for us to some extent was talking about how things would change so everyone could be happier and having certain rules that had to be followed. For example, here is breakfast eat it or go hungry.
No TV or screens at breakfast before nursery/school unless you are ready to put on a coat and walk out the door. Be firm, be calm. After a few major blowouts (which will be hideous), she will begin to realise you mean what you say.
I also realised that a good part of the problem was I was trying to be kind and give choices but for DD that was too overwhelming and actually she behaved so much better with very firm boundaries and expectations, once she understood what those were.
And use whatever methods work for you but stick to them. I find natural consequences worked well. Want to wear a tiny jumper or something inappropriate. .fine, let her be uncomfortable/cold whatever.

It's very difficult to deal with, I shed many a tear but things do get better. You have to think ahead, I didn't want to be dealing with an entitled wee madam as she got older.
This isn't to say it all magically went away! I still have a very strong-willed child but I hope in time she can use that for good instead of evil!

Thank you for this thread. I have a 3.5 year old and his behaviour has been a nightmare. I feel like I spend all day enforcing boundaries and being screamed at and hit. When he’s well rested he’s like a different child.

Hi OP, my DD just turned 4 is similar. I sympathise, it is exhausting and there are days when I really question whether I am a good parent. My friends all seem to have very compliant children, and I feel like I must be doing something wrong.

Some thoughts:
-The book 'The Incredible Years' is very good. One thing I learned from that is that you must be consistent, otherwise they learn to ignore you (as you won't necessarily follow through with a threat).
-Ignore meltdowns. My DD has started tantruming when we won't let her 'take a break' from dinner to watch TV. We ignore her, she eventually realises it isn't affecting us and comes and sits back down.

• Emphasize staying calm as a good thing to do, and show her by staying calm when she's pissing you off (easier said than done). My DH often decides he's 'had enough of her behaviour' and goes off on one but I think this just escalates the situation and teaches her it's ok to shout etc when you get cross.
• Give lots of positive attention and praise when she does anything (no matter how small) well. I have started praising DD a lot for either staying calm, or for calming down after getting cross.
• Prepare her in advance. You may not have the same issue, but for example DD always loses it when I say we have to go home from a playdate. I have started emphasizing with her what has to happen and how she has to behave, and the consequences for if this doesn't happen. So for example at bedtime you could have a chat with her about what will happen in the morning with breakfast.
• Pick your battles. I personally wouldn't have a problem with her dressing herself, my DD is doing this at the moment and I think it gives her some pride and sense of independence. I'm actually quite impressed with some of the outfits she outs together!
• Don't try to change too much all at once, focus on one or two issues first and would start with the hitting.
• maybe try to carve out some special one on one time with her. I think my DD is jealous of baby sister. This morning I took her out for breakfast just the two of us. She was really well behaved and thanked me several times for taking her.

Don't bear yourself up. Solidarity

Forgot to say, it does sound like she's tired. My DD's worst meltdowns are followed by her passing out of exhaustion. I've tried now to notice when she's particularly tired and tell her to have a nap after lunch, even if it means going to bed later.

It sounds like the extreme end of normal to me. Sounds tough, OP!

Seconding lots of the advice already given:

• giving a choice of two things e.g. clothes, food. It’s important that children have some opportunity to learn decision making, and open choices “what do you want to wear today” might be too much are her age, whereas “red top or yellow top?” Gives choice without too much stress. Giving children choice in some areas builds confidence and can help reduce the stress of being powerless in their own lives.

• NEVER ask “would you like to...” or similar if it isn’t really a choice. You can ask “would you like to get dressed or brush your hair first” but avoid at all costs questions that can be answered with “no”. If you get “no” to that question, just calmly say “OK, then I’ll choose. We’ll do your hair first”. You can back up with sanctions if you feel it’s appropriate, but try to link to natural consequences e.g. “it’s time for dinner now, please come to the table” if she doesn’t “if you don’t come now, there won’t be time for x later”. IGNORE a tantrum at this stage, and follow up with the loss of privilege. Expect another lot of screaming when you follow through. Don’t punish it, just calmly ignore it.

• pick your battles! Don’t try to tackle everything at once, it’ll be too much screaming! Pick the behaviour you most want to change and only tackle that. Personally I’d start with the hitting. Stay calm. If she hits you/anyone else, frown, but don’t shout “hitting hurts, it makes me sad. No hitting. Gentle hands. If you hit, x will happen” (loss of screen time perhaps?).

• always follow up. If you’ve made a threat, you HAVE to keep it. So don’t make any you’re not prepared to do! Inconsistency is the absolutely worst thing a parent can do for behaviour (we’re all guilty of it occasionally, but try to avoid it as much as humanly possible!)

Change takes time. Be prepared for a rough patch, but in all honesty it isn’t going to be much worse than it already is, and when you’re out the other side it will be much better.

My son is/was like this... He's nearly 6. He would try to bang down my bedroom door if I was in there trying to get ready by myself. He would regularly jump on us and scream at us to get up at 6am.

Our 'magic' solution has been to let him listen to children's radio in the morning when he gets up (CBeebies Radio/podcasts), on an old phone that only we can unlock.

He's like a different child in the morning now. He will happily play by himself for ages with the radio on.

I think he was lonely before... having the radio on gives him some 'company' while we rest for another 30min and get ourselves ready. I prefer it to screen time as he does lots of other things while listening (playing, drawing, even getting his own cereal). We do have to change the programme for him occasionally & act as tech support, but it's a small price to pay! Mornings are SO much more relaxed now.

Worth a try!

Also, I find that when my son's behaviour spirals out of control, the only thing that will 'reset' him is a hug. I feel like sometimes he's just lost control & can't regain it, but offering a cuddle, or saying that I'm here if you want a cuddle, can really help to regulate him. Threats and tine limits and punishments just make everything worse in our case.