Pick up put down upsetting baby - advice?

[PeacefulInTheDeep]

We started sleep training 6mo DD this weekend using the PUPD method. Friday bedtime was a disaster - she fell asleep sobbing in DH’s arms after 1.5 exhausting hours. Saturday was brilliant; she got herself off to sleep for 3 naps, and eventually at bedtime too although by then she was upset and exhausted.

Since then it’s been hit and miss. Repeatedly picking up and putting down seems to rile her up, and we get to the point where we can’t calm her down by holding, talking and patting. On Sunday we’d tried so long to get her to nap that she wouldn’t calm and we thought she might be hungry, so she had a feed and nappy change, then we did her naptime routine and set her down again. It was almost like a reset, and she got herself to sleep 20 minutes later. But the next nap she got completely hysterical, and we had to put her in the carrier where she slept for 2.5 hours.

We’re trying again today and she’s still not asleep for her first nap after almost 2 hours of trying. She got all riled up but is now calm and trying to settle, but it’s now almost the time she’d usually have her next feed. We just don’t know what to do. We’re reluctant to give up having seen success already, but at a loss with what we should do when she gets to the point where she won’t calm down. Does anyone whose baby has responded this way to PUPD have any advice or suggestions?

I tried it (once) and I was not determined enough to get it done properly, but also we only have one room so would not fully work. But my LO was relentlessly screaming himself purple for over 2 hours, and that was just too much for me (even with PUPD he was just getting gradually more unsettled and worried).

I just decided to go with what the baby likes, as long as I am not a completely sleep-deprived zombie. I.e. feeding at night is OK as long as he goes back to sleep afterwards. Taking a while to fall asleep is OK as long as he does not scream.

I think it does get gradually better (but FTM so I may be proven bitterly wrong by life). For now (9m) he has 2/3 daytime naps and sleeps nights 8/9pm - 7-8am with feeding through the night when he wants. But for me the best part is there is no crying, he loves his bed and I love to have him close by when he is falling asleep/sleeping. I find him too darn cute, and he is growing up too fast. Maybe I am weird.

Hmmm, it's so strange. The process of picking up and putting down just seems to make her more irate. But she has so much stamina, and will just lay in the cot shouting and sounding more and more distressed.

On the one hand I think I'm interrupting her settling process if I go in and PUPD, and I should just leave her to it. But then she starts to sound really upset, and surely it can't be possible for her to get to sleep if she's that worked up 1 or 2 hours later?

Tonight was a bit of a win though. 40 minutes after putting her in bed I had to go in and calm her down. She took the rest of her milk and got quite drowsy, so I put her down with some white noise on and she was asleep in 10 minutes.

It really worked for us. Did PUPD With both DS - took about 2 weeks of sometimes working, sometimes not.

At 6 months she's still very young, almost certainly not ready for that. I appreciate if you're severely sleep deprived though that you may need something to change!
Can I ask why you want to sleep train? Is it for longer stretches of sleep at night? Shorter bedtimes? Because MIL said to do so?
Then you can find the method that gives you what you need. Have you looked at the No Cry Sleep Solution? It's like a very gentle version of PUPD/gradual withdrawal where they learn to go to sleep on their own. But it does take time, there's no quick fix without distress for baby.

I feel so sad reading this. 6 months is so young.

There are several techniques out there. So research them! Just because it worked for A B and C friend doesn't mean it's going to work with your child. Just because it works with child 1 doesn't mean it's going to work witth child 2!

DD1 had such a primal reaction when we tried leaving her in her crib to cry and left the room that I didn't feel sad or emotional about it. It felt utterly wrong!!! Like robbing a bank! Or leaving someone injured without helping. She's very sensitive and clingy even at 4 yo.

You can mix techniques as well ;) do what feels better for you and your child. My kids co slept until about 2 years old. So there's all kinds of perfectly acceptable options, just find what works for you

We tried PU/PD at 6 months and it didn't work so we gave up. When he was 8 months old and didn't fit in his next to me crib any longer we had to try moving him to his own room. We put him down awake and he went to sleep without crying (after about 20 mins of rolling around). He has fallen asleep on his own for naps and night time ever since (previously fed to sleep). I never thought he could do that. I think its too stimulating to keep being picked up for some babies. Also, they may just be too young and trying again in a month or two might make all the difference.

Poor baby probably doesn't have a clue what's going on

This is what has happened with my kids any time I have tried an approach like this too. They don't get calmer, they get more and more agitated which also means more and more awake.

Sorry I won't be much help - I don't have the motivation or stamina to attempt much of any form of sleep training, so I'm afraid I went path of least resistance and just kept feeding them to sleep (and cosleeping full time/part time) until they stopped needing it. DS1 was about 2/2.5 and DS2 is getting there (he is 23 months) but still needs it yet. I think he just needs a little bit more language so I can explain to him what I want him to do. He's got lying down and listening to a story down but doesn't have the attention span yet to follow a narrative, and doesn't understand the difference between lying down calmly and lying down but manically slamming his legs on the cot or twirling a dummy around in his hands :o

I tend to follow the approach with mine of trying to stretch out a situation where they're comfortable and slowly wean off needing each part one at a time, so for example I will feed them but try to take them off the breast before they fall fully asleep so that they roll over and go to sleep like that. DS1 I did this in bed and let him roll away from me. DS2 won't stay in a bed without me for long at all so I use a pillow on my lap and he rolls away on that. The idea is that you get to the stage where you feed and then put them down in the cot and they're sleepy enough and comforted by your presence that they drift off. You can then move from there either to remove the feed (or just shift it earlier in the bedtime process) and/or to move your presence further and further away.

To be totally honest, I have never been very motivated to make this move along fast because I quite like co-sleeping, and because sleep can go through stages where it just works and is easy (so I don't think about needing to make changes) to challenging (where I get all motivated to do something) to nightmarish (where I end up bargaining with the sleep god "okay okay I'll do whatever it takes to just MAKE HIM SLEEP", and abandon any attempts at changing habits!)

I probably started making a conscious effort to separate the sleep from the milk at about 8/9 months, and not especially persistently, so you might have more luck with the same approach if you are more motivated than me. And also I do just believe that all babies are different as to the age they are able to settle alone without an adult they trust there. Giving them chances to try it out with reassurance seems like a good approach to me. But I have never found that there's a particularly easy fix until you can talk to them more and explain things.

6 months is nothing. I found the No Cry Sleep Solution good too, but didn't try it till around one.

I recommend 'the happy sleeper' book. Too much interference confused our DD. Whatever technique you choose, buy a book and follow it so you're not constantly reading conflicting advice on the internet.

PUPD rarely works IMO as the baby just gets really confused and upset.

Don’t spend two hours trying to get her to nap. If it’s taking that long and it’s got to be super stressful for all of you, then stop! She’ll sleep when she’s tired. Look up Possums, there are loads of free resources. Your baby is tiny. She wants to be cuddled and close to you and reassured that you - her whole world - is there with her. If she’s fighting naps she’s not tired enough and needs a distraction instead of a fight. What makes you think PUPD worked rather than was a fluke instead of the other way around?

Do you know what you’re trying to achieve? At 6 months I’d just be led by her. She won’t be this small or dependent for much longer. Cuddle her, reassure her, be close to her. If she’s tired she’ll sleep, if she’s fighting it play with her, take her outside, read her a book, sing her a song. And I don’t agree that finding one approach and sticking to it is necessarily right. Trust your gut. I don’t think anyone’s gut really tells them to repeatedly put their baby down when that baby just wants to be held, or to leave them to cry.

My understanding is that pick up put down is for younger babies, say 4 months. You're probably infuriating your little one to be honest and not giving them the opportunity to settle themselves. I would honestly say to consider controlled crying instead. Or some form of gradual retreat.

This is an emotive subject and what you decide to do depends on your parenting ethos, how you are coping with sleep deprivation, whether you're baby is getting enough sleep, and their personality, which has a big influence on what will work. Good luck, you've got this whatever you decide.

I think six months is pretty young for sleep training (I’ll be honest I’m not really a fan at all, but definitely not under a year). I remember a rhythm or routine worked better than a strict schedule at that age. So (thinking back - it’s been a while) morning playgroup then falling asleep in the buggy on the way home, wake up, lunch, play, second nap on afternoon school run. Feeds were pretty much on demand, and I fed to sleep at bedtime. If he had a late nap I’d go with it, have time with the older kids, and then he’d go to bed late evening. Obviously a lot of that can’t happen right now, but you could try morning play in the garden / park, go for a walk around nap time, then in the afternoon they sleep in the carrier? I don’t think pushing a nap for two hours helps anyone (even if the book says you should).

Ps for you OP. Sleep deprivation sucks. x

What if you're sitting in the room with her while she puts herself to sleep in her cot? Will she cry then? This works for my baby and he puts himself to sleep. If he can't I pick him up and hold him. Babies that young still like to know you're around.

At six months she needs about 3.5 hours of nap time during the day. I would do a short morning nap, long afternoon and short late afternoon nap. About 2 hours between naps.

When I saw a sleep consultant it was recommend to spend 30 mins trying to settle for a nap. If baby won't sleep then stop and try for the next nap.

I did this when ds was 5m 8 years ago... It worked pretty quickly but I still to this day regret it. I was sleep deprived, ftm and blindly followed the books (Baby Whisperer) who stressed her gentleness, was against cio etc. If I could turn back time I'd keep him close like I did with ds2, it was hellish at times but it passed so quickly and I treasure the memories instead of really regretting it

The picking up must be disturbing her. For my three, picking up was really THE last resort.

Is she drowsy when you put her down? Maybe some gentle music helps (helps with two of mine) and a cuddly toy.

With DD1, I used to stay until she was firmly asleep. With DS and DD2, I never bothered and they go to sleep on their own after a song (and a book for DS).

My mantra has always been to feed so they have a full tummy (no nappy changes after), to put them down when they show they are sleepy, and to leave them in peace. So no patting, talking, picking up, stroking or whatever. We wouldn't sleep either if someone kept engaging our brain. So why expect a baby to?

Hi @kikibo. Can I ask what gentle music you use?

*@HomesUnderTheSpanner^

Just those tinkly toys you hang on their cot.
DS now knows that, if he pulls it, it'll play a tune, so he'll pull it in the morning and take another nap.

DD has The farmers in the del on her sloth.

I can imagine gentle music on an app or so will also work, though I do think silence eventually is the best sleeping draught for older babies (past 6 weeks).

Thank you to everyone who has responded with understanding, sharing experiences and suggestions/advice. It means a lot and I appreciate the solidarity.

To answer @AnnaBegins question, we are sleep training for 3 main reasons:

1. Since the 4 month regression, she hasn’t been getting enough sleep and has been overtired, especially at bedtime.
2. The current method (endless shushing, patting and rocking while she fights me and wails) is just not working for us as a family any more. It takes too much time and is physically and emotionally draining for me in particular.
3. It’s affecting my relationship with my DD - I dread getting her to sleep and just don’t have the energy to parent effectively every day.

Interesting that one PP has said she’s too young for PUPD, and another has said it’s for younger babies. It just goes to show how much conflicting advice is out there.

@ColdTattyWaitingForSummer - definitely not trying to work to a schedule. Just a rough routine of things that happen in the same order every day. I know the timings will fluctuate day-to-day.

I’d love to sit with her @mystomachisrumbling, but I have a just turned 2yo DS who needs my supervision and attention too. He’s always been a good sleeper, but I do vaguely remember sitting next to him when he was small, patiently waiting for him to go to sleep by himself. It’s just not possible with the small age gap. The routine you’ve suggested is what we’re aiming for - up until now we’ve been putting her in the carrier for that long nap, just to make sure she gets one decent nap each day and to try to combat the overtiredness.

@kikibo - she’s not drowsy when put down, no. I used to be able to put her down drowsy and she’d be off, but the 4 month regression changed all that, and in an effort to just get some bloody sleep we ended up introducing more and more props. She goes from howling in my arms to fast asleep, there’s no in-between.

We’ve given up on PUPD for now, as it’s just stressing us all out. She’s shown us that she can get herself to sleep by herself (which is a huge win) so we’re giving her the opportunity to do it at every nap and bedtime. If she starts getting upset, we’ll just cuddle her until she’s drowsy/asleep. She always stirs a little when put down, so if she can’t get the rest of the way by herself, then we know she’ll go off with a dummy. I guess she’ll either settle herself more often if she has the opportunity to practice, or she’ll just wait for us to do it for her, in which case we’ll have to re-evaluate our approach in a few weeks.