2 and a half sleep routine - HELP!!

[Millie2008]

Struggling to get DS sleep pattern right atm (for context he’s always been a terrible sleeper). Issue is as follows:

• If he goes to bed at around 7/7.30 he wakes at about 4am wired and ready to start the day (not ideal - so want to change)
• he will only go to bed at around 7/7.30 if he hasn’t had a nap in the day - more than happy for him to have a nap and go to bed later. worked out that if he goes to bed at around 8.30 he is more likely to sleep until 6/6.30. Which is great, however -
• when he’s awake at 6/6.30 he isn’t ready for a nap until say 12.45/1. He would then sleep for ages if we let him (resulting in 11pm bedtime- which we’d rather avoid). However, even If I wake him after 45mins - so 1.45ish, this then seems to affect bedtime - and he’s not asleep until 9.30/10.
• when he goes to sleep at 9.30/10 he isn’t awake until 6.30/7 - which sounds great except that means there’s no chance of a sensible nap time on that day as he’s still wide awake at 12.30ish. So we miss nap and then he’s cranky in the afternoon and is absolutely hanging by 7pm so has to go to bed and then we’re back to him waking at 4am!

Basically trying to avoid ridiculously late bedtime or ridiculously early wake up and failing! Essentially he doesn’t seem able to sleep longer than a 9 hour stretch at night. All this means that one way or another he’s never getting the recommended minimum of 12 hours sleep in 24 hours. Would love him to sleep 8.30-6/6.30 at night but can't seem to achieve this.

Any thoughts/experiences welcome - particularly from those of you who had/have bad sleepers. Thanks!

Ps- not sure whether or not this is relevant, but he's being assessed for asd at the moment

My DS hasn't been a good sleeper in the past, he's 4 now.

DS dropped his nap at 2.5 years so you could be in that awkward transition territory where they don't need it, but some days they do, but you don't want them napping too late.

Personally, I would persevere with no nap, bed 7/7.30pm and put up with the early starts and it may take a week or two and hope they'll sort themselves out. We had a tricky month when we took the side off DS' cot and he got up at 4ish for about a month because of the novelty of being able to get out, he wouldn't go back to sleep. We pushed through, dh and I took it in turns to get up with him, no naps and early to bed if necessary.

DS also waiting to be assessed, our sleep problems have always been long night wakings, 2 hours plus in the night, he was a good baller though.

*napper

Thanks @Joffrey - so would you say on the days he's up at 4am - to still try and push through without a nap?
I definitely think you're right that we're in some kind of awkward transition phase.
We have a 4 month old too so it's all fun and games (a nightmare!!)

Generally we pushed him through, but obviously you'd know if your ds could cope.

He fell asleep in the car a few times in the morning, on the way back from playgroup or something but woke him up as soon as we we were home etc even if it had only been a couple of mins, but we purposely didnt go out in the afternoon so no chance of a nap in the car later. He wasnt a child who just nodded off on the sofa etc, he had to be in bed.

Often ds was grumpy but we felt it was worth a bit of pain, and we watched a lot tv in the afternoon. Some days he ate his tea at 4pm and was fast asleep at 6pm. Hes an only child so we could indulge this and sort of shift our day.

It did sort itself out and after a bit even if he did nod off in the car, still only in the mornings, it didnt impact his bedtime too much.

That's helpful thanks. Out of interest how many hours a night would you say he was getting around that time?

I have this problem, naps and in bed asleep really late, no nap awake for a few hours in the night or up really really early plus very grumpy in the afternoon. He’s been a bad sleeper since day 1 and has never had the recommended amount of sleep.
I cope by sometimes letting him nap and sometimes not. Sometimes it’s naps every other day, sometimes it’s a block of naps followed by a block of no naps. I have to drive him round in the car to get him to nap. I just go with the flow and what I can cope with at the time. Not sure how it’ll work when number 2 arrives in August.

@gonewiththerain - so reassuring to feel like we're not the only ones in this situation. We have to do similar to get DS1 to nap - round and round the block in pushchair atm

Maybe be consistent with not napping for a while, after a while it might become their routine, I always make sure mines in bed about 7ish, even if they don't go to sleep until 8ish they are in bed and the association of sleep time is there. She generally wakes between 6-645. Took a few weeks but being consistent with no naps unless totally necessary it has worked.

Thanks @foodtoorder - when you first started implementing that routine did your DC wake up super early? Sounds like you have an AMAZING routine now - very envious!

Once he stopped napping he'd sleep 6/6.30pm (sometimes 5.30pm) to 5/6am. Some would consider that a really early start but after a long time of poor sleep dh and I settled for a longer evening, we often went to bed early, and a solid nights sleep.

He now does 7pm to 6am.

We'd be more than happy with that @Joffrey - trouble is, atm, even without a nap, if he goes to bed at 7/7.30 he's up at 4

On paper that looks good but we've had our fair share of earlier starts and like I said long, long night wakings, where personally I'd rather have a solid sleep and be up from 4am, the sleep deprivation ruined by mental health.

If you preserve with no nap, you could also try and eeek bedtime later by say 15 mins every couple of days, over a few weeks to see if he went to bed a bit later over a period of time it would translate to a later wake up. My own mother had to do this with me, she said it was hard as for a while I was up later and still up early but after 2/3 weeks it paid off.

In my experience with DS there is no quick fix, it taken a long time to install any good habits, particularly if they're chronically overtired, but it takes no time at all for those good habits to be replaced by bad ones.

I’ve just done “wake to sleep“ with my just 2 year old. To stop her waking at 5/5.30. If persevering with no nap doesn’t improve things, it might be worth a try. I woke her at 4.00 just a tiny bit so she would turn over and go back to sleep, I did it for about 10 days and that meant she slept till 6/6.30. When I stopped she had reset her sleep clock and was still sleeping until 6/6.30.

Interesting @BornOnThe4thJuly - I've never come across that method before. It sounds v risky! Ha ha!