Help me explain why this is important

[EmmaJR1]

I'm after some help, but I'm not really sure how to explain it so here goes...

My dh and I have 2 children, a boy aged 3 and a girl aged 2.

I can regularly be heard saying things to my children such as "when your sister/brother says no/ow/stop that means she doesn't like playing anymore".

I also say "you can always change your mind, you are allowed to say no".

My husband (who is extremely intelligent, in a professional role that deals with regular sage guarding concerns) thinks they don't understand consent and it's too young to start.

It was bought up again tonight because he was playing with DD saying "give me a cuddle, daddy cuddles" and she was laughing and saying "no no no" then I heard dh say "you can't say no to me I'm your daddy you have to cuddle me" (Both are laughing and having fun"

I shouted from the kitchen "DD you can always say no, no matter who it is."

Basically I was told to get serious she doesn't understand and it's unnecessary.

This wasn't an argument by any means but I need help to make him understand why I think this is so important.

Dh is someone who believes wholeheartedly in equality but is a bit naive about sexism - he thinks because it's not a consideration for him it means it doesn't exist, feminism is unnecessary because women have more rights than men now....

Sorry that was long!

Also safe guarding not sage guarding....

You are right. Your DD does not have to cuddle him because he is her Daddy. She may choose to cuddle him as he is her Daddy, but that is her choice.

Substitute "boyfriend" for Daddy in his sentence, and you're looking at controlling abusive behaviour. He is teaching her that her consent does not need to be sought and she should submit.

What does he say when you put it like that?

I agree with him tbh, they're too young to understand or have full bodily autonomy.

They're of an age where you're going to have to bath them, change nappies, wipe bums, take them for jabs, put eye drops in, force them into car seats etc. etc. sometimes against their will. They don't have full bodily autonomy.

You wouldn't let an eye infection get out of control because she wouldn't consent to eye drops or let her sit in a dirty nappy because she doesn't want it changed, you force the issue because they are tiny children.

The time for that kind of chat is in a few years imo.

The example with a sibling, where they're saying 'ouch' is different, they're not too young to understand that you can't hurt other people and that other people mustn't hurt you. That's age appropriate.

Interrupting a fun game between a dad and 2 year old with a lesson on consent is silly imo. I agree with your DH on that.

If he was actually forcing her and upsetting her btw it would be different, but you say they were laughing and having fun i.e playing a game. Lots of kids like to be chased for cuddles/kisses. It's completely to different to adult/sexual relationships.

It was bought up again tonight because he was playing with DD saying "give me a cuddle, daddy cuddles" and she was laughing and saying "no no no" then I heard dh say "you can't say no to me I'm your daddy you have to cuddle me" (Both are laughing and having fun"

I shouted from the kitchen "DD you can always say no, no matter who it is."

Why did you feel the need to turn them having fun into a lecture?

I have managed to teach my kids about bodily autonomy without ruining any fun they were having. I would have been so pissed off if I was your dh.

Also telling kids that young that all that matters is their wishes and that they can say no at any time to anything is probably just going to cause bratty behaviour tbh. It's probably better to wait a bit until they understand the world better so they dont kick off because they don't want to put their shoes or coat on, or go for a bath, or take medicine, or have pre school boosters, or eat their vegetables or any one of the millions of others things that kids have to do because their parents say so.

Thanks for the POV - my thinking was if they hear it enough they will be confident to say no and mean it when it's needed.

It's not just my dh I say it to, I say it to my mum as well. She's always saying give nanny kisses. If the kids don't want to I tell them they don't have to and just say no thanks nanny.

Maybe I just need to evaluate the situations that I choose to bring up about?

Obviously they don't have full bodily autonomy yet but I do think they are old enough to understand that it's their body and can choose what to wear/who to cuddle etc.

Agree with PP. I am totally with you on the message you're trying to send but they're too young at present to understand the nuances, and it was a rather preachy thing to do.

They're too young op. I totally agree with the sentiment but they can't comprehend it yet. Were you the victim of something at some point?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult my husband is definitely not pissed off at me. I did not lecture, I just said it conversationally and the game continued regardless. It's something we talk about quite often but have different views on how to approach the subject.

My children understand there are some things they have to do and I'm sure there will be bratty behaviour at some points when they don't want to do something (actually they are toddlers- this happens every day!) but I still strongly believe that they can say no to kisses and cuddles regardless of who is giving them.

I'm not trying to be an ogre.

I agree that it's an important message but I think the shouting through was a bit off and OTT. It's a conversation to have with your husband at another time, not when they're playing and having fun together.

@inwood haven't we all been? General groping/catcalling/letcherous comments and looks...

When I was younger I was too scared to complain and it took til I was nearly 30 to stand up for myself. I don't want that to be my children.

'I still strongly believe that they can say no to kisses and cuddles regardless of who is giving them.'

I agree with you. But she didn't actually mean no did she? And he wasn't actually forcing her was he? They were playing a game. A game almost every parent has played with a young child. They want to be chased/tickled/forced into a cuddle. I assume you didn't sit the two year old down and explain why she shouldn't say 'no, no, no' when she clearly meant 'yes'?!

I'm glad your DH isn't annoyed, but he has very right to be imo.

Your general sentiment is one we can all get behind, but that response to that game is ridiculous.

They might not have full autonomy yet. But they are obviously aware of when they want hugs and kisses. So absolutely have the right to refuse. You're right to support that. Your husband is totally wrong in a slightly alarming way.

Perhaps try explaining that they obviously have prefences which should be respected. As in a badic level it's unpleasant to be touched if you don't want to be. It also teaches them they can say no to grown ups.

I'm not a parent so maybe see it differently to your dh. I adore my nieces and always want cuddles after all little kids are very cuddlesome. But always ask and respect if they say no however hard it is.

Thanks everyone- maybe I need to alter or delay my approach. I'll have a think on it.

The NSPCC suggests that their "Pants Rule" is suitable for discussion from around 5 years old (with the caveat that every parent knows their child best.) One of their main points is "No means no".

At the ages of 2/3 it's a bit early to have meaningful discussions about it, but you can always review the information for your own peace of mind.

I think the best way to teach a child about the concept of consent, is to immediately stop when they say no to tickling or whatever. And to either apologise for your misjudgement or somehow affirm their choice.

Rather than teach them through discussion, teach them through your actions and responses to them. I think even before a child can speak you can teach them about personal boundaries and respect.

They might be too young but your DH needs to learn to alter his behaviour and he might as well start now.

'They might be too young but your DH needs to learn to alter his behaviour and he might as well start now.'

No.

The behaviour of any, even vaguely competent parent, evolves naturally as the child gets older.

You don't need to practise.

You don't need to practise not breastfeeding because it wouldn't be appropriate to bf a 12 year old.

You don't need to practise not having a bath with them because it won't be appropriate when they're 10.

You don't need to practise not tucking them in at night becuase it will be weird when they're 30.

You don't need to practise not letting them run round nude in the garden/on the beach because it won't be appropriate when they're 17.

A Dad doesn't need to practise not playing this type of game with his happy, laughing 2 year old because it won't be appropriate when she's older. She will stop wanting to play this game and he will stop doing it. Just like he'll stop holding her hand to cross the road and putting her shoes on for her.