Please help me nip this in the bud - 4 year old DS is turning really rude

[Hmmmmminteresting]

It's breaking my heart! He is a lovely boy and always has been. He is very bright and has a great sense of humour. He was 4 in Jan. We have never really punished him if he has done wrong, we have been able to talk to him and about it and he has been genuinely sorry or really learned from what he has done. We have never used a naughty step or smacked or anything. We have always tried to treat him like he is equal to us rather than dictate and it has worked till now. We give choices eg. In the mornings I'll pull out 3 cereals and he chooses. 3 tshirts and he chooses. We do the same with his 2yo brother. It's been a happy house.
Since lockdown we have all been home together and I expected a certain amount of change as he usually goes to nursery 4 days a week. However his attitude is getting worse by the day.
He is purposely messing up the house, he will empty our cupboards while we are out of the room and then we walk in and he will shout Haha. I ask him - tidy it up please and he just flat our refuses but with the worst attitude - today I got "actually it's your stuff so you tidy it MUM" (always has called me mummy). If I say please dont speak to mummy like that he literally just copies me, or the worst I've had so far was simply saying "shut up mummy". Today I was so cross I asked him to go and play with his toys in his bedroom and give us some space and he just refused so I ended up carrying him up while he smacked me over the head and tried to fight me. I put him in his room and he immediately came out laughing the second I shut his door and ran straight back down stairs.
My husband said we have done this by never introducing a naughty step etc early on (we didnt do this because my db has one for his 2 and is the first to admit it does nothing).
What's happened! And how do we fix this? He has so little respect for us at present it's terrifying me. He has always been so kind to his brother but seems to almost enjoy seeing him upset now and has started name calling with all of us. He is due to start school in september and I've already got visions of him being a mean child who wont accept any punishment or telling off!
Please help!

Oh dear! He sounds like a nice boy going through a bad stage. It happens. You definitely need to up your consequences to actions game. I.e. If he messes the cupboards up then he has to clean them up and isn’t asked. Basically, you as parents should have authority over that and you might have to be strict in many ways to make it happen. Children can’t raise themselves on good temperaments so don’t worry, it’s not like he’s destined to be naughty, he’s just reached an age where your old methods won’t work anymore xx

So basically what you’re saying is you’ve never disciplined him and now it’s come back to bite you on the bum?

Thanks Noti for responding. Out of interest are there any consequences you recommend? We have always been careful not to punish with food and he often chooses fruit for snacks and desert anyway.
The only thing that seems to hit him where it hurts is removing his bedtime story...but that feels so wrong as the time we did it as things got too much, he sobbed himself to sleep and I vowed never to do it again!
I just have no idea what consequences are good for this age

Rosskemp yes basically - because there has never been a need to. He has never really been told off in his life till recently as he has been a well behaved child. The same as his brother now. We always get complimented on how nicely mannered and sweet boys they are I guess we have been lucky.

The thing about sanctions is that you don’t need them til you do.

You didn’t need any before, he was a baby and he was (unusually by the sound of it!) compliant.

Now he’s a preschooler and he’s coping with living in a pandemic (aren’t we all!) And he is demonstrating that he does need firmer discipline.

So give it to him- structure, routine, relentless consistency. He makes a mess (deliberately or through normal play) he cleans it up.

Refusal means a hard stare, a stern word from Mummy/Daddy and the day does not go on, (he doesn’t get to do the next fun activity) until he apologies and complies with the request.

Rosskemp to clarify, if theres been the odd occasion where he has done something wrong we havent banished him to an naughty step. An example I can think of is when he was 3 he drew over our newly painted kitchen walls. Rather than send him to the naughty step we explained why he had made us feel cross and how it had taken us a long time to get that room to look nice. We got him paper out and he sat drawing. I could see the cogs turning and before I knew it he had got up and started cleaning the walls.

As it stands now I feel he would go and draw on the walls purposely to upset us and have no intention of cleaning it

You and your husband need a united front.

Decide what battles you wish to fight. From what you say, violence to you, disobedience and rudeness for starters.

If he hurts any of you, or tries to, get down to his level, make him look at you, and you say We Do Not Hit. Send him to his room or another unfun place to think about his behaviour, and don’t let him come out until he is ready to apologise to whoever he was hurting. Once he does, big cuddle, then do something else entirely. Definitely don’t let him go somewhere he can play with toys.

Introduce a count down for doing what he is told. Give an instruction clearly, and once only. Start counting at 5; he probably won’t let you get down to 1.

Re rudeness, I reckon he is old enough for ‘that is not a nice way to speak to me. how would you feel if I called you X?’ Etc

Praise positive behaviour however small.

How to Talk so little kids will listen is worth a read

Thanks AppleKatie , what you're saying makes sense. I just hope it's easy to put into practice because the stubbornness is really exhausting!

And yes, definitely make him clean up any mess he makes deliberately, even if you have to sit there for ages to make sure he does.

And agree a Hard Stare is a valuable tool

I think consequences have to be simple and immediate at that age. Not playing with a toy nicely, one warning, then take it away. Make a mess, clean it up. He does something he knows he isn’t allowed to do, eg draws on the walls. Take him to the scene of the crime, ask him to tell you what the problem is, and get him to tell you how he is going to solve the problem.

Solasum I like your style! He is clearly a person who enjoys responsibility that's one thing we have always seen from a young age. He likes to feel that his choices and opinions are valid. To be honest the 2yo couldn't give a damn what cereal he gets at breakfast but when ds1 was the same age he had to choose or he would get very upset, even if he went on to choose what we already chose for him! But I think we need to put a lot of the onus back on to him when it comes to bad behaviour as well, you're right.
Thanks for your very helpful comments!

My DS (now 6) is also extremely stubborn, and this approach has worked for the most part for us at least. I found it so bloody difficult to keep going with it early on, but it does feel more natural now. Good luck!

"To be honest the 2yo couldn't give a damn what cereal he gets at breakfast but when ds1 was the same age he had to choose or he would get very upset"

This is just classic PFB. You created that picky monster

Just introduce sanctions for poor behaviour and stick to them. Routine and a bit more routine. The naughty step isn't working for your brother probably because he's not doing it properly. Good luck!

You need sanctions and if the only thing that works is removing his bedtime story then use it.

Aside from the discipline I would keep an eye on what he’s watching on TV. Growing up my brother used to turn into a devil child after watching outnumbered, he’d emulate the bad behaviour he saw on TV.

So might be worth paying extra attention to how the characters behave in the tv programmes he watches and then talking about it with him if a character is naughty.

Whatever you do, don't make threats you cannot fullfill. If you say it, mean it, and do it.

I just hope it's easy to put into practice because the stubbornness is really exhausting!

Sorry to disappoint but it isn’t easy or quick. In my experience people who tell you that a type of (on the face of it reasonable) dicipline doesn’t work are the same people that give up halfway through.

Expect his defiance to get worse before it gets better.

Accept that you and DH need to be completely united in front of him. (Discuss it later when he can’t hear if there is a difference of opinion).

I wouldn’t bother with things like ‘no bedtime story’. Bedtime stories are excellent for promoting good behaviour, literacy and good sleep, it’s counter productive to take it away -stick to consequences that are logical to the crime.

‘Because you were so busy being rude to mummy I felt upset and it took up time, this means I’ve only got time in the afternoon left to do the hoovering and make dinner we’ve lost the opportunity to do X or Y fun thing together and you’ll have to help by tidying your Lego’ or whatever.

Going against the grain a bit, I would say that yes, you definitely need boundaries and consequences. For some children though, going too heavy on punishment can be counterproductive. You might have to experiment a bit to find what works. For my very defiant child, the most important thing was building a strong relationship through plenty of 1:1 and praise. And lots of acknowledgement of her feelings/pov. We had only a few key issues that we would send to time out for (violence for example). And we did find that time out only started working when she was about 5. Before that it led to screaming and even more violence. For rudeness I would just say firmly, “please talk to me politely” and wait for him to correct himself. I don’t think you necessarily have to punish for that. But as I said, different methods work for different kids and as you have found, they change! The key thing is a good relationship and as much consistency as possible. Consistency is bandied around a lot but actually it’s really hard in real life.

RossKemp Discipline isn’t the same word as punishment.

What the OP is saying is that the previous discipline method is now not working.

Children do not stay the same in their responses to anything throughout their development.

OP, mine had some sort of havoc outbreak at about 4 or 5. I would advise loads of excercise: running races, jumping competitions.

Also lots of contact: tickles, play wrestle, tag, cuddles while rolling around, arm wrestle. So high energy moments amidst the endless craft and play doh and.... indoor lockdown stuff. Imaginative stuff for him to do, let him change his own environment; get a massive box big enough for him to be inside, let him transform it into anything g he wants, a den, space capsule canopy over his bed...

Wall paper or other massive paper: lie him on it and draw round him: let him decorate a life size version of him as whatever he likes and out it in his wall. Get him to think about what and who he loves and draw those in his head area.

And develop your firm and authoritative Voice . “I said no, I have explained why and that is the end of it”. “If you mess up my things your Lego will go in the cupboard and not come out for a week “. Grey rock any ‘don’t care!’ Stuff and follow through.

He is probably bored and frustrated, and any

I agree with PP that consequences need to be immediate. Take a small chair or stool. Paint it an ugly colour. Put it in a corner, and he sits on the chair/stool for four minutes when he misbehaves. You can still have a rational discussion afterwards.

You and your husband are his parents, not his friends. It’s a small thing now, but will be more important when he’s a teen.

Part of the issue here is you’ve never made him feel bad about doing something. So he has never learnt how to apologize and make things right. It’s a life skill to understand the boundaries.

In school they do a chart of naughty things and the consequences

Example - rudeness is a time out
Hitting they miss break times
Violence they get sent home

So get a pen and paper and ask him

I hat should happen if anyone hits? Keep it to everyone so it’s not just for him

You could model this by daddy hitting you and him spending time in the thinking chair
Then he needs to apologize and you make up in front of him.

He also needs to be able to name his feelings. So you can show him how to deal with those - for example say to him in can see you’re cross’ we are going to go out side and calm down for a few minuets.

He should be able to link those feelings with how he deals with them. I’m cross I need to move away/leave/go for a walk

Good luck. You need to crack this before school starts

My DS is also 4 and he can be like this. Not quite as bad, but the rudeness is sadly very familiar.

I second the book how to talk so little kids will listen.

I personally don't use time outs as I tried for AGES since DS was about 2.5 and his behaviour never seemed to change.

What works for us is immediate removal of privileges eg this morning he was being rude/a pain while Milkshake was on, so off went the TV. Yes to clearing up any mess, DS scribbled a felt pen on his little kids table yesterday so he had to wipe it off. That sort of thing. Also what makes my DS stop and think is asking where DSname is, saying things like I only see a rude boy here, where is DSname? I miss DSname. Quite often this brings him round.

Good luck! I think it can be a tricky age and lockdown isn't helping, my DS is worst when he's bored it seems.

PinkPlantCase yes we had to knock Peppa on the head when DS started copying George (refusing food and saying Yuck!, etc - he is not remotely picky normally).

DS will refuse to clean up messes etc too. Find a thing he likes, and threaten to remove it if he doesn’t do what he’s told. For us, it is threatening to take him to nursery in the pushchair instead of letting him ride his bike, or removing the iPad. Or removing myself, if he is playing too roughly with me. He usually rushes to make amends and get whatever it is back again.

Exercise helps (two hours in the park makes a massive difference to the rest of the day). And DS is in an unfortunate phase of almost dropping his nap but also getting really moody around 4pm when he gets tired. We either make him nap after lunch, which results in a late bedtime but angelic child. Or if he doesn’t nap, we pack him off to bed as soon as he gets stroppy, and if that is 6pm then so be it.

I don’t bother correcting bad behaviour that is clearly born out of tiredness, there is no point as he just doesn’t take it in. We just pick him up and take him up to bed (kicking and screaming).