Ds is ruining for us all

[Ds8isruiningitforall]

A bit of a background. DS is 8 and is very bright, no issues at school. However at home has always been very hard work. The first week of all holidays are normally hell with him. Very disruptive behaviour. I know he doesn't do well with a lot of free time but there is only so much we can arrange
He is spoiling it for the rest of our family. Has 3 other ds.Currently is upstairs for squirting waterbin his brothers face at which his brother squirted him back twice then he started hitting so I sent him upstairs for 30 min but he is completely off the wall in rage and how unfair it is. I'm at a stage where I want to talk to someone about him and his behaviour. Not sure if school is the best place since he is fine there but they spotted that socially he needs to developed more. We think his dad has asperegers(undiagnosed). He can be this amazingly affectionate and understanding boy (sometimes even more so than his brothers) but when he is disciplined he is a nightmare. He has been in his room for about an hour as he will just not accept he is punished.
I know it doesn't sound terribly awful but it is constant with him and feel one adult permanently has to have an eye on him and what he does and warn that his behaviour is unacceptable so it's just driving us all. Any suggestions on useful books or where I could start looking into things

I'm just going to delete this as people are getting it completely wrong and focusing on it. Ds2 decided to squirt ds3 in the face then ds3 retaliated and squirted him back twice tlbut ds2 thought it was unacceptable as he had only squirted him once so then he proceeded to start hitting him. He got punished for hitting and not for the initial squirting!! He didn't get an he but as he was out of his room every minute his start time kept being pushed back. Appreciate 30 might be too long but as hitting is a main offence in our house I punish hard.
Hopefully it's clear what happened..thanks for all the links and suggestions! Will look into it

Thanks @WarmthAndDepth. It's clear we are doing something wrong but the rest of 3 boys are actually quite nice to be around but not sure if we have got to the stage where ds2 has been in trouble for so long that they also see him as a cause of issue maybe even when he hasn't been the one. Will look into it more thanks

I'm baffled why so many posters think both boys should have been punished the same.

Of course you punish a child for being violent, the water squiring is almost incidental. Squirting back twice rather than once is absolutely not the sort of provocation or "escalation" that justifies hitting.

That said I think it may be worth reconsidering whether time out is working for your DS/your family.

Dear op, I think this thread could be in the wrong place for you, the parenting section will provide you will well meaning posters, for whom normal parenting rules have worked.

This probably need to be in the special-needs section. I only say this because my eldest son is very very difficult and basically none of the other parenting rules (and I've read all the parenting books and been on all sorts of courses) work.

and even on special-needs section, posters try to be helpful, but often little works.

but basically nothing works with my Ds1, because basically he just doesn't care about anything. Or little.

so I think you have to sit down and appreciate that you just have a very difficult child.

I know. My Ds2 is easy peasy!

You will find stuff that barely works, for a short time. But the long journey is incredibly draining. But Once you accept that it makes a tiny bit easier.

I think you need to focus on something else. As his behaviour is great at school and then difficult at home, with hitting etc. it could be worth looking at ways to help him understand his emotions, especially if there is a possibility of neurological conditions but really is useful for any child.

The Zones of Regulation is a really great system for this. Helps children (and adults!) to understand what sort of emotion they may be feeling and what the appropriate course of action (they call them tools) is. So if your brother is doing something annoying, don’t respond like with like, ask them to stop, move from the room, tell an adult etc. You can also look at scale of the problem type responses. Is it 5 on a scale of 1-5 or is it more of a level 1 problem etc.

Sonetlumiere I agree completely. He struggles with not being challenged and occupied all the time and I understand that I guess i struggle to work out how to parent a child like him when I have 3 others to attend to and I fail to see how it's fair me spending most of my time playing with him, entertaining him unless he has some sort of a special need. That's the point of my thread finding some ideas and to make me understand him better

Thanks Oblomov and Looks , will try another thread and will look at the zones system

Appreciate 30 might be too long but as hitting is a main offence in our house I punish hard

But it clearly doesn't work,so stop punishing hard.

@TwinMum89 'gentle parenting'? FFS. Gentle parenting doesn't work, haven't we all figured out that by now and is the REASON there are so many badly behaved children. Bringing back proper discipline is needed. Since it was outlawed, kids have known they can do anything they want and get away with it. Gentle parenting my arse. What a load of rot, and probably written by some delusional hippy who doesn't even have kids.

The OP isn't punishing 'hard' at all, in fact, she is punishing weak.

Being 'fine' at school, and a nightmare at home, is classic ASD high functioning / Aspergers.

Worse still, all these schools claim the child is 'fine' at School, when they So aren't.

I think you have enough concerns to ask for an assessment.

"Fine" at school and a nightmare at home is a red flag for neuro-diversity.

We think his dad has asperegers(undiagnosed) very often if there's a neurodiverse child, one of the parents may have the same condition. Often that parent cannot see their child is 'different' because the child's behaviour seems fine to them.

School have commented on his poor social communication, that's another rather large red flag.

As is being unable to cope with unstructured time.

See the school SENCO OP, ask for their comments on anything they observe, then take their findings plus a list of your own to your GP and ask for a referral for an assessment of your son's needs.

Also read up on Autism, ADHD, PDA and see if any of the parenting strategies for those conditions help your son.

Sounds very like my six year old! Very affectionate boy and can be very caring. But unable to cope with anything he perceives as criticism/ punishment. His Dad also certainly does have an undiagnosed condition whether autism/ narcissm/ personality disorder.

We have had a family support worker offer help and also waiting for a psychology led parenting programme (all free on the state). Things I have found helpful - me keeping calm and modelling how to deal with difficult emotions/ son being taught some calming techniques (which he reminds me of if I am getting stressed), reward jar (pebbles) for son showing positive behaviour, such as managing to calm himself down more quickly than normal - being co-operative or coming up with ideas for solving a dispute. Reward any move in a positive direction, no matter how small.

Also, me remembering that this is a long term project in helping my son to manage his emotions. My friend is a child psychologist adn she has suggested offering to my son that he can draw pictures of how he is feeling - this helps and helps him to talk to me about his feelings. She also suggested I let him know that I understand that these feelings of anger or upset are unpleasant ones for him to have and that I am there to help him deal with them.

My son is a lot less violent and more able to manage his emotions. Punishment, even for hitting, just wasn't working for him. It was making him more out of control of his emotions. He really has needed support and understanding. He is responding well to this. The best parenting advice I ever had was ' your parenting style needs to match your child's personality'. I have found this to be true.

Your punishment system clearly isn't working for him so you do need to find another way.

Good Luck!

Thanks Blank, will do. What you said is very interesting. It's just baffling as how well he coped as school everything thrown at him and when holidays come, he takes about a week to adjust to being at home but then seems ok and happily engage in activities again. The only thing that's seems to be getting more challenging is his social interaction. He gets more and more detached from normal situations e g going for a playdate with a group however one-one is fine and he seems quite popular with all the children but I think he puts a bit of an act at school so has quite a big character

I too have zero tolerance for hitting. And in my book an hour certainly isn't unreasonable.

I do agree with 'gentle parenting' as such but it's always interesting that those who suggest it:advocate it also say that they have children too young to actually be pressing the buttons an older child can press!

We don't hit or shout bit it is absolutely reasonable to punish a child for hitting. They aren't all precious little darlings who need to have zero criticism all the damn time. Their self-esteem isn't an end in and of itself. They need to know they're loved but they aren't royalty and hitting others is just shitty and they should know it.

I would definitely speak to the school.
I would sit your son down and tell him how disappointing it is that his behaviour is so awful (and it does sound it) . Tell him you love him but that you are made miserable by the way he is acting out. He is old enough to know that he is hurting others.

I'm sorry you are going through this.

Do you spend much time with him one to one, or is he almost always in a full on interacting with several others type situation?

Disruptive behaviour can often have a deeper cause. He may struggle with interacting calmly, He may start situations he cant actually manage to keep fun and then lashes out.
He may want physical fun. Water squirting, then hitting. Hes trying to get a reaction, then cant handle it.
He might even be losing confidence as to his place in the family if its a busy family and hes always in trouble, even if he starts it.
he is still only 8 though. He is prime age for a testosterone burst, wich can make any kid be annoying and more physical.
Is he the eldest?

Yes we spend more to one time than probably with any of others. Him and I get on. I get him and he gets me when it's just us two. When it's everyone else, he behaves very silly. He was the middle child for 4 years until ds4 was born and so we always put difficult behaviour down to that. He was tricky from age of 2 when ds2 was born. He actually loves all his brothers very much including ds 1 who is 10 and is amazing brother and very helpful. The problem is he is so intense not many people can handle him apart from me even ds4 who is only 18mth thinks he is too much after a while . I'm quite strict with him but he is fine with that when it's just him and I as no other riva so he listens and accepts what I ask him also he knows I care about him and love him. Also think he likes doing wild playing and messing around yes like all the others and getting tickeled. He is all about fairness and thinks the world is against him which I worked out when I was looking into middle child syndrome.
A very complex boy!

Sorry a bit confusing their ages are 10, 8 (ds we are talking about), 6 and 18 month

I think maybe its his age. The dynamic definitely changes when there are more children. I absolutely love spending time with all mine one to one, but in a group, it just gets ridiculous.
Can you maybe factor in regular breaks.
Probably teaching grandma to suck eggs etc, but make sure hes getting plenty of time without having to interact and keep a close eye if hes too boisterous.
It is really hard sometimes. My middle boy is like bloody Bart simpson sometimes and it is hard to not keep telling off, but if the getting in trouble is happening all the tme, then usually means something else is going on. After all, behaviour is just communication

I know what you mean. He has a very difficult relationship with his dad who finds his behaviour too much ( like I do a lot of the times) dp does try time to time but he can not handle him for very long. Ds is the exact opposite of dp even tho we talked about asperegers in both. Dp is very introvert and set in his own way and is also strict and uptight. He is also very loving and nurturing but as I said him and ds just don't see eye to eye. The only things they seem to be similar is academics and passion for work. When it comes to disciplining I usually do the work but like I do sometimes he doesn't have the patience to hold out and just left with resentment as to what chaos he is leaving us in. I think some family therapy or family help might work for us...