When does shyness become rudeness?

[MaidofKent78]

Our 4 year old DC is painfully shy; finds it really hard to make eye contact and engage with strangers. We try and encourage and praise like mad when he does it, for example when out shopping. Today we stopped for coffee & cake and the cafe owner kindly gave him a free cake, but he couldn't bring himself to look the guy in the face and say thank you. Is this starting to become rude? At 4; I think it's time to up the ante in terms of expectations. I was sorely tempted to give it back, but not sure what it would have achieved beyond a sobbing meltdown.

Being an introvert myself I do empathise and we have been working so hard to improve this but it doesn't feel like we're getting anywhere.

It’s rude to insist someone who is anxious to interact. Giving back the cake would have been deeply unkind.

DD 4.8 is quite shy so if she is too scared to talk to someone, she is allowed to wave. I will probably start being stricter when she is 5.

At 4 yes a simple please or thank you should be expected. He doesn’t have to look at people or engage beyond this but it’s courtesy.

Which is why I didn't do it. As tempting as it was, I knew it would be very unkind. I suppose my question is, how do we help him as our current strategies don't seem to be helping?

It.does become rude in adulthood but not at 4yo!

@teddybear45 that's my thoughts. We struggle to get either a please or thank you at the moment.

At 4 he won’t have a developed sense of empathy to understand why manners matter to others. All he will feel is his own shyness. He also can’t self regulate his emotions yet. I encourage manners a lot with my 3.5 yr old dd but will also explain if she’s shy and apologise or thank people on her behalf. They’re still only little and these are big conceptual skills when you think about them.

Pushing the issue might force him to override his feelings and save face, but I don’t think you can create gratitude or empathy in such a young child, and advocating for him as opposed to others is imo the kindest thing right now. The other stuff will come in the next few years of his development and school etc may bring him out of his shell.

Is he deciding to be mute? I would only ask questions with open answers. So no “yes” or “no” answers required. Try and get others to do the same. Saying please and thank you is not a response he needs to make.

Does he go to nursery? I would talk to his key worker about helping him. The nursery should be aware of this and start expecting responses too. They should have ideas about what to do at home. School will be a massive hurdle otherwise.

Jesus that's not rude! It's anxiety. My DS was diagnosed with selective mutism at that age. He reacts just like your son to strangers trying to interact with him. Please never, never punish him for being shy!! You don't know what damage it could cause. If your child does have selective mutism (Google it and see if it fits) then you need to remove all pressure on him to talk. Selective mutism is an anxiety disorder and if anyone tells them off for not speaking it makes the anxiety 10 times worse. I've heard the shyness for these kids is so debilitating that their throat muscles literally clench up when they're under pressure to talk. My DS is now 6 and still struggles greatly. We're working with the school and a speech therapist to build his confidence. It breaks my heart when shyness is seen as rude or naughty and children are punished for it.

Does he talk to people at school? If he does, he's doing fine. Shy/anxious kids are not doing it to be rude, they genuinely struggle with this.

My DD is 9 and still painfully shy. She fits the profile for selective mutism tbh, but because she talks at school she won't get any help. She couldn't talk at a recent optician's appointment, which did make the whole process somewhat frustrating, but she wasn't trying to be rude, she was just too anxious to talk.

Don't push him too hard. Gentle encouragement is enough at his age. Possibly even try some small goals with rewards, something like saying thank you gets some sweets or a small toy (DD got quite a lot of Shopkins at that age for speaking to shop assistants, or swimming instructors, etc)

Let him be, before he starts thinking of himself as a complete failure.

Model the manners you want to see but have zero expectations of him. If you find it socially awkward say things like “sorry, he’s not going to speak up today”or “.He has trouble speaking up, don’t you DS”.

Show him that you believe he’s ok as he is,then he can flourish in his own time.

I agree with Laura. I think it'll come in time.
My little was (still is sometimes it's certainly not completely gone) like this. Wouldn't look or talk to people she didn't know. She's 5 now. She gradually got better. She'll say please and thank you now. (Not all the time sometimes she still won't look). I tell you what really helped as well - school.

I wouldn't say shyness becomes rudeness, they are two completely different things. I think it's more about when do other people decide that once a child reaches a certain age then for some reason shyness is seen as just being a poor excuse for bad manners.

My DS can be extremely shy and there is probably a less than 1% chance that he will greet or thank a stranger on any occasion. If he can't (not "won't") say it I never push it as it would be totally the wrong thing to do for him as it would increase the focus on him and almost paralyse him with fear. I just say thanks for him.

He is gaining confidence very very slowly...sometimes he will whisper an answer to someone's question in my ear then I will repeat it to the person, so I just have to hope it will build as he grows so I'm not having to thank people for him when he's 18 .

I would encourage a smile and you need to model the thank you so saying “ Oh how kind, we need to say thank you don’t we.” Wait for the child to say it then thank on his behalf if he doesn’t. After a while your child will pick it up from you. I was shy, both DDs were but could deal with that by around 7. Don’t stop encouraging it though.

After a week in a classroom of noisy 5 year olds , I can tell you that I am so very grateful for the quiet ones.

If speaking worries him, could you teach him to sign thank you? Learning a skill and watching to see how his new skill is received, could give him confidence.

Model basic interaction at home. When you put dinner on the table everyone should say "thank you". If you give him a snack, expect a thank you. Let it become a habit. For everyone in the house.

Tbh, I think it's the same as naturally talkative/ loud children. Few people think it's acceptable to leave them to make as much racket as they like because they can't help it and it's just the way they are. But neither would you punish a dc for an exuberant thank you or take their cake away for being too loud in their thanks. And extroverts are just as likely to be sensitive as introverts. So imo it depends where on the scale shyness compares as to what exactly is acceptable and what needs strong encouragement to change.

I agree with redspider1 it's what I did with Dd1 who was extremely shy at that age, model it explain to child a thank you is what is kind to do give child a short few seconds to give a thank you if they don't just say it in they behalf yourself they will pick up on it eventually my Dd1 is 11 now and it's only been the last two years she's really come along with her confidence with engaging with strangers other adults in her life even and she's now a outgoing girl with all the confidence in the world and can hold a well mannered conversation with anyone

Thanks all for your feedback - it's very useful.

We all do model the behaviour we expect both at home and out and about and at home and nursery he's pretty good (like most 4 year olds he has to be prompted occasionally). Nursery don't have any concerns about it. I don't think it's selective muteness. Some days he will interact; but there's no pattern to it. We are suppoetive of him and advocate for him when we are out and about "sorry, he's a but shy today" sort of thing. I posted following a conversation with my husband, and reflecting on our day, so just wanted to gather opinions so thank you all :-)

Good, that's exactly the advice we've been given for our son. If he's shy and can't respond to someone just say "He's feeling a bit shy at the moment". Never under any circumstances punish him. For our son it's a case of him simply not being able to speak even if he wants to. I'm not saying your son has selective mutism but ours does and it comes and goes. There are situations where he's confident with people he doesn't know (he can be too noisy with them) and other occasions where he's crippled by shyness. I think SM and shyness have much in common. They are both related to anxiety and the child needs to be helped with developing their confidence. Drawing attention to their failures or being angry only sets them back.