Pathetic school rules

[Gigimum]

My son just started high school. Got a detention yesterday for drinking water outside on his break. No warning just a straight detention. Apparently this is a new rule they have because other kids messing around throwing water (which he was not). They can only drink in the canteen. He was not aware of the new rule. Also they have just set them a goal of drinking 2L a day. I think it's totally pathetic of the school to give out detentions for. I want to ring and complain he doesn't want me to. Am I over reacting 🤷🏼‍♀️

Personally, working in inner city London schools, the younger teachers who are also not local to the area lack the life and personal experience to work with anyone but the top sets of self motivated and disciplined students.

There was one young woman I worked with, she was 25 at the oldest and came in via Teach First. She was NQT and then went straight to head of year 8 and HoD. 2 years later she went off to some company that teaches senior teachers how to teach. She was fantastically intelligent and organised but she'd regularly be in tears because some kid called her a name and only taught top sets/A Levels in her last year with us. I don't see how she could teach other people how to not only teach, but lead. Yes she might know what study said X but actually doing the job, I found her lacking. She spent most time trying to ban the SEN kids from her class unless they had a TA.

That may well be the case for some ... but geographical area and Teach First are very different issues to age. I also think it's important to differentiate age from experience. We have a teacher who is at least 50 who has just changed careers and started teaching this year. He is awful. Now, that's not to say that all inexperienced teachers are worse than experienced ones. It's just pointing out that age can be misleading.

I also think that type of school makes a massive difference. Naturally, schools with discipline issues will need different skills (in both teachers and SLT) than a school with few discipline issues, and/or which is highly academic. There is such a wide range of schools these days. I'm merely pointing out that it is unfair to assume that someone young can't do an outstanding job (as a teacher or a leader) in the right school for them. I would say that finding the right school to suit a few her/leader is important for everyone anyway! Funmily enough, we've literally just been discussing this in the past week on my Doctorate in Education course!

surreygirl1987
If talented then of course there's no issue with younger middle leaders etc as part of a mixed staff body, but I think they are in the minority.
Where there is a dominant idea of pushing out experienced staff in favour of younger,more compliant staff then that sort of picture is more concerning. It was the overall picture of corporate central that I have concerns over.

Then again, I also agree with you about some more experienced staff/SLT who think they can keep doing the same old thing, do CPD on learning styles and brain gym and other debunked ideas. They tend to be quite threatened by critically thinking teachers, just in a different way to the corporate types.

To be honest, any SLT who can't handle staff disagreeing with them is a concern and a sign of weak leadership in my opinion.

So only allowing water in the canteen? Another stupid rule. Yes complain, why should every child be banned because of the actions from a few?

@surreygirl1987

When you are working somewhere where more than a 1/3 of children live in poverty,there aren't "discipline issues". They aren't just naughty kids. They are young people with a range of social, mental and physical health issues which impact on their ability to access education and achieve academically. A

They do say things like "if I was somewhere everyone was good, I'd be happy". What they mean is if they were somewhere with a lower level of poverty and wasn't as diverse,they'd be happy but they chose to come to inner city areas for whatever reason (usually money) and have nothing really to offer the population of said areas.

@chilledbee thanks for explaining that but I did actually used to teach in two very tough inner city Birmingham schools in very deprived areas and have a great deal of experience with such pupils. I was a FSM pupil myself and, while I nowhere near suffered the extreme poverty of many of the pupils in these schools, I certainly understand the perspective of struggling families. Not all mumsnet users were born into a middleclass family - I remember a couple of times when both my parents were unemployed. I certainly did not suggest for a moment that the issues you mentioned are not part of the whole 'picture'. The fact is, though, that significant discipline issues are also part of it, and it was this aspect that I was referring to. I've done extensive research into social class and education and even presented on the topic at a university conference. Thanks for the input though! If you want to know more, I can suggest some excellent recent research on the topic that we covered in a social justice module on my doctorate.

@Lolasmiles completely agree with you

I don't think you get it actually. If you did, youd understand why undisciplined is the wrong word to use in such a context. Regardless of what they taught you in uni. Make sure the research you subscribe to is conducted by people with valid positionality before you extrapolate their findings.

To put it at a basic level, would you refer to obstructive or harmful behaviour in a 10 year old child with Downs Syndrome as "undisciplined"? If not, why not?

Right now, I'd seriously out away the uni books and journals and listen to Akala if I wanted to make a difference in such a school.

Thanks but I DO have quite an insight actually... and not just from 'uni books' as you so derisively say, but from working in two very challenging inner city Birmingham schools... and I notice you have ignored my points about my own background in the context of what you say about deprivation. I disagree with your simplofied use of 'get it' as I don't think it's something you can 'get' or not. There is a sliding scale of understanding.

My use of the term 'discipine', which you appear to object so strongly to, was, amusingly, actually a direct response to YOUR comment: 'lack the life and personal experience to work with anyone but the top sets of self motivated and disciplined students'. I was merely commenting on the direct opposite terminology.

Furthermore, many actual point was raising objection to your assumption that younger teachers can't, IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT FOR THEM, can't lead well. Sometimes it doesn't work. But sometimes it really really does. Sometimes that might only be in schools with 'self motivated and disciplined students'. I didn't say that wasn't the case

Anyway, amusing discussion. Forwarded it on to some of my ex collegaues in my old Birmingham Schools. Thanks for that! 😁

Yes, I did use "disciplined" to refer to those who are able to access education and conform in a way deemed appropriate. I would not use the term "undisciplined" to refer to those who cannot.

You'll go much further in accepting that your positionality (look up that term in anthropology text books) as a teacher in a deprived area gives you zero insight into the students because of the power difference. To understand their lives and values and concerns, you have to access their lives from a place where the power difference is neutralised as far as possible. So no, getting paid for doing your job for a school in Brum gives you no insightful perspective whatsoever.

As I said, put down the uni books and forget the pretty PowerPoint presentations you did at uni and get listening to people like Akala who will help you broaden your perspective and understanding. Gossiping about your experiences with other people who are in the same role as you and also lack your insight does nothing but reinforce your problematic views and behaviour.

But most teachers really don't care about this sort of thing because they harness the power to repeatedly make education a waste of time for people who cannot conform. I really don't expect you to take it seriously.
.

Wrong shoes.

Wrong trousers. Twice.

They didn't adequately describe the shoes or trousers that complied with uniform.

I also heard from someone in a different form that someone got a 2 hour detention for being late after throwing up.

why don't schools have water available only in the dining room at break and lunch? Who needs it all day?

My DD's optician says that she needs to drink a lot more water, that's why her eyes water randomly, they're trying to lubricate. Only having it available in the dining room would just make it even easier for her to forget to drink. Sometimes she comes home with a full bottle. She'll maybe buy a flavoured milk or a fizzy drink, but that'll be it all day.

@Chilledbee - you're very sweet for telling me what positionality means and for thinking that isn't covered in huge depth on a doctorate 😁

Loving that you're still ignoring my own background. 🤪

You're funny.

Oh and I forgot to mention... I'm actually from inner city Birmingham 😂

surreygirl1987
It's not just you. Any teacher who has an opinion that differs from Chilled's view must obviously be someone who is draconian, hates children, isn't inclusive and so on.
Just another type of "my view is the only view and if you disagree you're crap" SLT figure.

Many thanks @LolaSmiles ... I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall! 🤦🏼‍♀️

Been there, done that on multiple threads. There's really no point. 🤷

Ohhhhh really? One of 'those' then. Thanks for the heads-up 👍

... and then they wonder where a bully learns their habits...... alll bullies of the worst kind.