Naps "drowsy but awake" help!

[Hannah511]

My daughter will be 4 months next week and we are trying to start implementing a nap routine of putting down in her crib drowsy but awake. My problem is, shes quite a "fussy" sleeper, in that the second she gets tired she goes from 0-60 crying and has been this way since she was about 6 weeks. She won't take a dummy, we've tried for weeks with 4 different kinds.. and I'm not too bothered about her having one either.
No matter how many tired signs we look for we can't seem to nail the right time to put her down. We've tried from the first yawn/ eye rub to 5 min increments after that, to just following standard awake times per week of age. It seems like when we try to start the nap routine she becomes aware and starts crying.
Occasionally If we put her down from the very first tired signs she will lay in her crib happily but then every 5 or 10 mins that moves on she gets more fussy until hysteria- with or without us being in the room shushing, hand on chest etc.
Our nap routine is the same as bedtime - up to our room (She sleeps in a NextToMe), we have black out curtains so it's pitch black, turn on white noise, do a bit of shh pat on the shoulder quiet time. The only difference is at night she has her last big feed (breastfed) but I try take her off me before she's zonked... She is very sleepy but not completely out of it so generally going down for bed is ok and she can do it.

So that's the background! Does anyone know where this elusive drowsy but awake falls in amongst this! She doesn't seem to have a happy "drowsy".

Our next issue is she only naps for 30 mins ANYWHERE except on us in the carrier, but I'm assuming that will sort itself out if we nail drowsy but awake for naps or as she gets older they will consolidate.

Thanks in advance x
(FTM if you can't tell!)

Babies sleep cycles are only 30-45mins and they have to learn to go back to sleep.

When she wakes up first, leave her for a few mins to give her the chance to go back to sleep.

Drowsy,my dd it has never needed to be an exact science, first yawn or eye rub we take her up sometimes we take her up before any sleepy sigbs if we know her nap time.is coming, she has always fussed for 5-10mins on and off then goes to sleep

Why don't you try timing a feed just before nap to help baby get the idea of nap time?

4 month sleep regression around now, definitely research those, there's quite a few of them.

I always cuddled my eldest to sleep until about a year. Didn't mind, had the time to do it. Personally, if this is your first, I'd just do that.

My youngest, I started putting in the cot to nap with white noise to drown his brother out and swaddled at six weeks old. He just kind of got used to it.

She might not like the cot or being laid flat on her back. Neither of mine liked that. I had both of their cots on an incline. The next to me does that.

Lazypuppy thank you , she will occasionally have a bit of a feed before a nap but she's not the biggest boob lover unfortunately - any hint of tiredness/wind etc she will arch back and not go anywhere need it. I usually have to time feedings straight after she wakes from a nap when she's still a but groggy (She was born with a TT which we had revised but she's still a sensitive/fussy eater! We think we have ruled out reflux or silent reflux.
When you put your baby down do you stay with her and shush or just leave the room?

Gummy goddess I've heard of the dreaded 4 month sleep regression but as she's always been like this I'm a bit stumped. I wonder if now is not the time to be trying anything new though and wait until it passes?

Thanks

Fatted we just put the crib on an incline last week for her cold great tip! Sounded like she was choking on mucus and coughing waking herself up poor thing

There's regressions at 6 weeks and 4, 6, 9, 12, 18 and 24 months. They aren't nice for anyone, you're all tired and baby is trying their best to sleep but just can't do it. They should be over within 2 weeks maximum though.

With DC1 I didn't get him to nap alone until 7 months. I made a nest on the bed for him to sleep in with me cuddling him and then gradually I removed my arm from under his head, then from across him and then moved away to the other side of the bed before finally leaving the room. The last stage was getting him into his cot for the nap. It took quite a while (maybe 1-2 months as I just couldn't leave him sobbing himself to sleep) and I just went back to the previous stage if it wasn't working, but he is an amazing sleeper now. He will tell me he's tired, walk to his room and stand by his cot and wait to be put in there before snuggling in and closing his eyes.

DC2 is a different matter as I just don't have the opportunity to do the same for him with DC1 running around.

My dd hasn't hit any regressions so cant comment on them.

Op when i put her down for a nap, she goes in cot with blanket and dummy, i set a music thing playing for about 30 seconds and leave. Go back in if she gets upset, but its normally just fussing on and off so i know she'll fall asleep

I used to cuddle my boy to asleep, worked considerably quicker and I could usually get him into his cot once he was asleep. It's only in the last 3-4 months that I've been able to put him down awake and then he gets himself off to sleep (he's now 15 months). We had every regression and it hit us hard so we just went with path of least resistance!

I think 4 months is probably just quite earlier for self settling. Both mine were fed/rocked to sleep til around a year and only after that would settle being put down drowsy. But that transition was no problem when we made it. I would just do what works now. You’ll find a new approach when that doesn’t work anymore.

I'd just feed to sleep at 4 months. I would always have at least one feeding lying down in bed nap a day - they always slept for much longer and I could doze!

Thanks all! I did wonder if this was too young for it but bad naps and waking up in the night were spiralling downhill. I thought I would try again today after a bit of a confidence boost from mumsnet. She usually has 4 naps a day (the last nap being a bit of a "danger nap" depending o how close to bed time it is!)
3rd nap I put her down and she took 20 mins of crying off and on but it wasn't bad, more of a complaint and she kept stopping to look around so I knew she wasn't too upset (like she has been in the past). She eventually went quiet and went to sleep! I think I've always just picked her up after a few minutes of crying and not given her a proper chance? She still woke up after 30 mins crying but after another half an hour of perseverance and a bit of a top up feed she went back off.
Last nap I think I put her down too early. She rolled around kicking her feet happily and then started to go, took 45 mins but no crying at all.
Over all a semi success so thank you!
However both times I was lying down next to her so she could see me, was shushing and had a hand on her, when ever she woke up I would shush again etc. Am I in danger of myself becoming a sleep prop?! Atleast I got a bit of a snooze in myself. Overtime would I gradually move away from the cot and sort of shush from a distance? TIA

It is normal to feed and cuddle a baby to sleep... please don’t believe all of the absolutely rubbish advice that comes from “sleep training culture”, it isn’t now known to be physiologically damaging to leave your baby to cry.
30/40 min naps are normal at this age, sleeping better in a sling is very normal. Frequent night walking is very normal.
You are doing a wonderful job and it will get easier.
Please cuddle and feed your little one to sleep.

Sorry: “it is now known”

@Hannah511 that sounds like real progress! Well done! Carry on lying by her while she is getting used to going to sleep, but eventually try and leave her to sleep, whether that is just you leaving once she is asleep, or leave before she is asleep.

Sounds like she is quite happy in her bed for a while as well.

It is ok for her to wake without you, but you'll hear her on a monitor, then you can appear all happy and she'll be happy to see you!

Thanks @snowoctopus she has atleast her first or second nap in the sling whilst I walk the dog (although she does still fuss and cry a bit in this if I don't catch her in time 🙄) ...assume if when she's in the crib I'm there next to her reassuring her it's not like leaving her to cry it out? I did try PUPD for a while but she was getting so wound up I quickly stopped that. I just want to try ease her into getting to sleep on her own in her next to me crib.

@lazypuppy brill I will try phasing myself out over the next few weeks when I put her down in her cot. I was just pleasantly surprised that she could do it without crying (even if it was the once!)

At night she goes down awake but sleepy no problem! Assume the 5.30am wake ups are normal? She's asleep by 6.30 Or 7 but I just can't get past the 5.30am wake up call. I tried leaving her this morning just shushing but I think she had been wriggling around since 5 and by 5.45 she was wide awake.

I agree with snowoctopus. She’s still so tiny. She’s also too young for PUPD techniques. Although I’d say that at any age as I don’t agree with sleep training.

Drowsy but awake is utter bollocks anyway. Just cuddle your baby and feed her to sleep. I used to feed my twins to sleep on the bed and then just slide them into their next to mes😊 Job done. You can’t become a sleep prop! It’s biologically normal for baby animals to want to sleep close to their mothers.

Those wake up times are also totally normal.

This brings back memories. Glad to hear that it doesn't harm them to cry themselves to sleep.
There were only 13 months between my first 2. Second DS wasn't a good sleeper. Sometimes I was so desperately tired I put him in his pram - old fashioned type - in the kitchen, shut the door and went up to bed. DS1 was already asleep.
DS2 only started to sleep when he started walking, well over a year old.

5.5 month old here self-settles like a dream at night (touch wood). Tried cot naps for weeks and weeks. Gave up and she now naps brilliantly in her pram in the kitchen. Asked here on advice and it seems a popular approach - saves you being tied to the house for nap time (today I had lunch with a friend during it!).

My theory is that naps are for approx 3 years; bedtime is more important to nail. Might be worth a try.

Drowsy but awake is a mythical state that doesn't exist for 99% of babies. Cuddle, sing, rock, feed, whatever. While they're tiny all you need is an easy solution for both your sakes. Don't make naptimes any more stressful than they need to be.

You can work on getting them to settle independently when they're much older. It will happen eventually, trust me. I rocked my eldest to sleep and fed my youngest to sleep. They both go to sleep in their own beds without fuss now (youngest is just 2 years).

Don't know if it helps but dd is 4 months old today and has no real nap structure apart from bedtime which is roughly the same each night although I have just tried to bring it forward from 10pm to 9pm as she seems to be over tired now by 10pm.

I can gage though that after every day time feed she / we will play for maybe around an hour, sometimes a little longer at which point she will be ready for a sleep. I usually give her a cuddle and she is flat out in a couple of minutes then I transfer her to pram or moses basket downstairs where I can see her. This is working well for us although I think we have hit the sleep regression.

Gone from one night time wake up to 4 only one of them is for a feed thankfully but even so it is still disturbed sleep for us both.

Dd does have a dummy which helps her get to sleep - mam ones. Also she is bottle fed.

If out and about in the pram she would sleep the whole time.

Lord how I searched for the mythical "drowsy but awake".... my son could have been the drowsiest boy in the kingdom of all the drowsy babies, and the second you tried to put him in the cot, his eyes would ping open and he would be enraged by the betrayal of it all.

We very gradually lowered the input we gave him to get him to sleep, and eventually he just did it himself.

It gets better eventually!

We started a nap routine in the cot at 4 months old, it's not too young. But we managed to get him down 'drowsy but awake' in the evening first, and then the cot nap just clicked into place.

For us, drowsy but awake was holding him until his eyes were closed, hands were still and he stopped telling stories. I just followed the awake times for his age (no more than 2.5hrs at 4 months). We bought the little ones sleep program, and it did help. We didn't have the 4 month sleep regression at all, in fact his night sleep actually got better at that age.

He also didn't sleep for longer than 45 minutes except in the sling. And that stopped after he was 4 months old :(. We're just about cracking the catnapping now, but it's hit and miss. Apparently the ability to link day sleep cycles doesn't develop in some babies till they're 6 months old.

And babies are quite adaptable - if you get her to sleep in her cot, she will sleep other places. My son has had a nap in the car, pram and his cot today. He can also sleep in the ring sling, but I can't hack that for more than 20 minutes anymore...

If you are keen for a nap routine, go for it! Getting her to sleep in her cot and then phasing out your presence definitely sounds like a good plan.