3 and a half yr old ds not interested poo smearing & refusing pants

[staples]

Any advice please? DS is 3 and a half.

He will not wear pants. If he is naked he will go to the toilet for a wee. If he has pants on he will just wee in them.
He will only poo in his nappy - if he is naked he will demand a nappy to do the poo in.

Problem is he doesn't like the feeling of poo in his nappy and will take it off without telling and end up smearing poo all over house.

Also want to start at a playgroup. They will take him not toilet trained but will not change nappies - obvious fear - him removing it himself & putting poo everywhere.

-Is it normal to be so late toilet training? Everyone else's ds seems to have been out of nappies, even just in day, for LONG time. But he is just not interested. He just wants to wear nappies all the time.
-Is it normal to insist on nappy, even tho' he doesn't like feel when he does a poo?
-I'm worrying about the taking it off & not even telling & sick of the disgusting mess all over house.

sorry to hear about this staples. I guess you have tried the treats, star charts etc which people often recommend.Have yo spoken to the health visitor about it? can't really offer any good advice I'm afraid but good luck.

have you tried the putting the nappy over the potty idea? so that he does the poo in the nappy but he isn't wearing it?

he will not sit on a potty. He absolutely refuses. We've tried on and off for over a year (started to introduce the idea when most of his friends gave up nappies altogether. some of his friends have been out of nappies for over a year and he still shows no interest at all in doing other then wearing nappies he occasionally sits to wee on the toilet, but basically has no interest in moving on from nappies.

I'm worried about his generaly development, but i suppose especially this.

This is probably far too basic a response but have you tried saying you will give him a sweet or chocolate if he does it in the potty or loo? My eldest was just short of 3 when I potty trained him and for a long time he pooed his pants every day even when he had weeing in the loo sussed. I found with him and the next two that bribery worked well. Gradually, as they became accustomed to doing the right thing, I stopped offering the bribe or made it conditional on something more eg washing hands, using the loo not the potty, staying dry and clean all day. Could you try saying that he cannot start playgroup until he is out of nappies? Would that spur him on? It is a horrible situation for you. I am dreading potty training my fourth child and you would think I knew what I was doing by now!

Hi staples. Sympathies- this must be v hard. Poo smearing is not fun. You say you are worried about your son's development more generally- can you say any more about this? I think in isolation later toilet learning is nothing to worry about but if you have other concerns as well it might be worth asking your GP for a referral to a paediatrician specialising in child development.

have you tried toilet seat? i too worried when my ds1 was offered a place at nursery as they insisted he was toilet trained. hope this help:
1.focus on dry rather than wet, check him every 15 mins then longer as you and he become more confident:ask 'have you got dry pants?' then check then after a few days get him to check himself - lots of praise
2.poo in the potty yourself!
3.dorling kinderley do a photo book for potty training with lots of photos of boys on potty looking pleased! (they do another for girls)
4.withdraw all treats unless he wees/poos in the toilet potty
5.try a weeing doll with potty - you can buy them at woollies for a bout £6 get him to train the doll - it may help to reinforce the message
6. i found starting potty training for the first 3-4days inside worked (very intense but may be worth it)no trousers or pants (remember he's been trained for the first 3 and a half years to use the nappy) follow him around the rooms with potty/toilet chair, take him with you when you go to the loo - say 'i need a wee/poo' (yes all dignity goes out the window)and expain the process and how much better it feels. try and be really patient with him, talk to him about how he will be able to start schoold when he can use the toilet, ask in a calm voice 'do you need a wee?'
7.when you feel confident to go out take potty in pram/car with you, again treats may help to reinforce as he may be too busy/excited/concentrating to think about loo - if you think he's due to go then try and take him and in the same breath have a sweet/lolly ready - show him it when you go the loo/potty and say 'after your wee you can have this'
keep to night nappies for now. when its gets warmer say its time to use th e potty at night time (don't mention nappies so he will eventually forget all about them) take away pj bottoms, get him to wee before he climbs into bed and have potty with nightlight by his bed and lots of praise and patience ready (and a mattress protector).
can't remember anymore but hope it helps and goodd luck x

we've tried bribes, got us a bit of progress with weeing on potty, but now he point blank refuses. if we try to encourage him to wear pants he gets really angry and agitated 'no wear pants. no no noooooooooooooo' etc.
I'm not even sure he understands about playgroup but i really feel he should go - next summer he'll be starting at kindergarten & he's never left my side.

we've tried potties, loo seats, getting him to watch his mates as well as us.
in general i'm starting to think his language development is slower and he get very angry and agitated easily. just feel in a whole year we've gone backwards not 4wards

Oh poor you, staples, sounds like you are pretty worried. I'd pop him along to the GP and ask for a referral, I think. And send him to the playgroup anyway. Hopefully the staff there will be able to help with the toilet learning and many, many children have the most amazing speech progression once they start going to playgroup. Good luck

you're great, thanks scummymummy. tbh i'm finding him such hard work. dh is ex gp but instead of being helpful he just shrugs anything & everything off.

Hi Staples.

This all sounds so familiar. My ds1 was still in nappies until the summer holidays. He was then 4yrs 2mths. Until then he'd had absolutely no interest in toilet-training/potty-training. In fact he had a phobia about sitting on a full-sized toilet (still does really). We didn't have the smearing problem as sensory problems mean that he hates getting his hands dirty.

The only thing that worked for us was something called Social Stories. Ds1 is autistic (although at the high-functioning end of the spectrum) and so his speech therapist wrote the story for us. It's worded in a very specific way and actually worked miracles for us. Without wanting to sound like a bad advert, ds1 is now out of nappies in the daytime and has probably only had 2 or 3 accidents in the space of 2 months.

Are you seeing anyone about your concerns about his development?

coppertop, no i'm not. dh is against it & thinks he's just 'difficult' but he's away alot & I'm left to deal with it. he's not a great sleeper either so I usually have a desturbed night/very early start, so the tiredness doesn't help.

tbh autism has crossed my mind but i've tried to push the thoughts aside. can you tell me more of your experience & how you handle difficult behaviour> I guess that's very broad,but any thoughts appreciated

I would definitely speak to your HV. If you have any worries devlopmentally it's always worth getting it checked out!

I think fathers do tend to find it harder to accept that there may be a problem. My dh used to insist that ds1 was fine. I had to hide away my books and notes about autism in case I was accused of being obsessed by it all. Dh is now very keen to educate people about autism and the problems that ds1 faces.

Ds1 used to be a very angry little boy. If he thought that something was 'wrong' he would have a major meltdown. Lots of screaming and shouting, throwing himself repeatedly against walls and floors etc. It was far worse than an average toddler tantrum. He would still be wide awake at 11pm (or later), woke up frequently through the night, and was still up at the crack of dawn. All this left me feeling absolutely exhausted.

The things that helped most to calm him down in general were:

1. Understanding why he did things. I discovered that a lot of his problems were due to his senses being out of whack. His hearing, vision, smell, and sesnse of touch on his hands is hypersensitive. The rest of his body feels very little pain. I learned that his habit of hurling himself at walls was so that he could actually feel something in his body. Giving him very firm hugs helped to reduce that. His behaviour was always worse in noisy, brightly-lit places or where there were people getting too close to him. Avoiding those also helped. Your son's smearing may also be a sensory thing in that he likes the sensation of it. IT may help to give him alternatives to smear with, eg shaving foam, washable paints etc. My ds2 (who is possibly also on the autistic spectrum) likes smearing gravy and sauces over our doors and walls. If you do a google search on "sensory integration disorders" you may find something that seems familiar to you.

• Establishing routines. Ds1's behaviour is a hundred times better when he knows what's coming next. Try wherever possible to stick to routines, eg breakfast first and then get dressed etc. Telling ds1 what we are going to do next always seems to help, "We're going shopping and then to the park."

Give countdowns before he has to finish an activity. We do this at 10 mins, 5 mins, 2 mins, 1 min and then say "Time to do X now" rather than just saying stop what you're doing.

• Social stories. We've used 2 of these now and they've been a success both times. You can find out more by googling "Social stories Carol Gray". Basically it is a very simple story that explains why we do things/how to act in a certain situation etc. Ds1's bedtime routine and rituals used to take 1.5hrs every night. It now takes only 20 minutes. There are also some threads on this in the special needs section of Mumsnet if you do a search.

Feel free to post on the SN threads for more advice/information. When I first started posting I didn't have an official diagnosis for ds1 at all. There are a few of us with children on the autistic spectrum. Come and join us if you can. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like to know. If you want to do it privately you can use the contact another talker option to give me your e-mail address.

It's sooo frustrating toilet training!!My DS2 is 3 yrs also. We took him out of nappies 2 months ago & we're still struggling. Have had 1 horrendous smearing experience. Still waits for me to suggest he goes to the loo - when he's jiggling round - never initiates this himself. Doesnt mind weeing on the loo but seems to panic if he needs to poo, jiggles around on the seat saying "cant breathe"!!Sorry I haven't got any useful suggestions have been tempted many times just to put him back in pullups and wait. Good Luck!!

thanks for that coppertop, was useful. frustrating thing is he is a very angry boy - don't know where it comes from. even if I tell him nicely not to do something he will fly into a rage and run over and start hitting me. other day was at a park with a friend. He was playing with the brakes on a pushchair and friend told him not to, yet he ran over and started hitting me, even though she had said no to him! Also when I try to talk to him/tell him off he just shouts at me, but when she tells him off, he's quiet & submissive & never shouts at her! I must be doing something wrong .

Maybe you're right about the sensory thing, I mean he's always getting hold of lip stick/shaving foam (that struck a chord!) and causing havoc with that. oh, and drawing on walls. but the poo smearing is just on step too far.

I hat the thought of just giving up after trying for so long. Do you think we should persevere with the potty trainiing? I mean he really seems to not want to, but I don't know how much he even understands.

will definitely look at those stories. Thanks everyone. motherhood can be bloody hard sometimes, can't it? good luck to you too, notadrop. maybe you can put him in pull ups but not let him know that they are iyswim. would pretending they were normal pants help, so he acts as if he's just wearing pants rather than taking the nappy aspect for granted and not bothering? Dunno how these thiings work. best wishes

Staples I would have a chat with your hv and see if she can suggest anything. Then decide whether it's worth carrying on with potty training or waiting for another month or so.

I honestly don't think you're doing anything wrong, Staples. I know that with my ds2, when he's tired we can't even say his name as this sends him into a rage. A friend thought we were slightly mad - until she accidentally said his name and all hell broke loose.

As for the toilet-training, I think I would be tempted to leave it for a little while. I know it's tough when everyone gives you the look that says "Why's he still in nappies at HIS age???" but at the moment it seems to be adding to your stress levels.

This is the social story we used for ds1. Each sentence is on a different page and each page has a picture or photo on it which you can do yourself and make into a book. Ds1's story is about standing on a step and using the toilet standing up but you can alter this a little if you want your ds to sit down:

• Every day people need to go to the toilet lots of times.

• When I feel full in my tummy I need to do a wee.

• When this happens, I can go to the toilet.

• I will stand on the step.

• I will pull my pants and trousers down.

• I will wee in the toilet.

• I will pull my pants and trousers up.

• I will wash my hands.

We read this story with ds1 at regular(ish) intervals for about a week. In the end he opted to use a potty-chair at home but suddenly seemed to understand what it was all about.

I really think it could be worth talking to your HV about him. She may be able to reassure you that everything is fine or can refer ds for an assessment.