5y.o very contrary- concerned it’s ODD

[Danzie]

Hi, my 5 year old daughter has always been a difficult character, but lately her behaviour has been bizarre and unmanageable.

She will argue with me about absolutely nothing, e.g I’ll offer to read her a book at bedtime, she won’t pick a book so I’ll go to leave, then she screams and says she wants a book.. but won’t pick one. Repeat this x 15. Whilst she gets more and more hysterical.

She gets really angry about nothing, and can be hostile, rude and disobedient (but not ‘naughty’.. she doesn’t run off/break things/hit etc). She is really good at school and largely good for others. No history of trauma or anything negative.

She is currently sat outside the bathroom whilst I’m in the bath, she is crying and saying sorry, explaining that she knows how her behaviour is unacceptable and unkind. But I’ve heard this before, she still won’t think twice to do it again (although it’s positive that she does understand).

Lastly, her behaviour is made worse if we give her ultimatums or say ‘I’m counting to 5’ etc. This actually seems to encourage her. Ignoring her bad behaviour and only reinforcing the good behaviour tends to escalate it as well. Hence why I’m out of ideas and questioning WTAF is wrong with her

To me that sounds like fairly normal five year old behaviour. Has she just started school this term? Maybe she's exhausted and overwhelmed. If she finds making choices hard, make them for her whenever it's reasonable, and give her two books to choose between at bedtime for example. If you 'pitch it' positively (I've chosen two lovely stories for us, which one would you like?) then it may be more effective.

Sounds very similar to my DD at 5 too. She’s still interesting at 9!
I find techniques like those in ‘How to talk so kids will listen...’ are better with her than counting, rewards, consequences. They work great with her brother, but not with her.

I think the good behaviour at school and in other circumstances probably rules out ODD.

My DD was very "challenging" as a young child - not quite the same as what you describe, but she was very impulsive, very quick to anger and very very determined to get her own way. A lot of her behaviour was about attention-seeking, button-pushing or "manipulation" (ie aimed at obtaining a particular outcome). She was mostly fairly well-behaved at school - although it depended a bit on the teacher (the firmer the limits the better).

What worked best at home was being very matter-of-fact and withdrawing attention pretty quickly when she started to ramp up the provocation. I used to tell her she could go and be as angry as she liked in her bedroom but the rest of the family wasn't obliged to listen to her having a tantrum.

Punishments were mostly counterproductive because they resulted in an "arms race" where she would raise the stakes each time. Much of her behaviour was about getting her own way and/or getting attention so just removing attention and not giving in were punishment enough.

Your daughter sounds more anxious than mine, so this may or may not be a good approach, it's very hard to tell from a short description.

(If it helps, my DD grew out of it eventually and the teenage years were much more straightforward!)

You’re the second person to recommend that book! Will search for it on my kindle.

She isn’t completely wild, but her moods are unpredictable. I feel like it’s an attention seeking thing but NOTHING I do seems to help, she makes us all so miserable when she’s on one.

She’s in year 1 so not new to school, and it isn’t choices that seems to set her off. If she’s going to kick off, she can create a reason from thin air. She does have a couple of friends at school with behaviour issues, but I can’t really blame them as she’s always been tricky.

If anyone has any suggestions to deal with attention seeking, especially when children do the whole “push-pull” thing, I’d been grateful x

Thanks @mistigri so interesting that you say she sounds anxious, I have an anxiety disorder but I’ve never considered if that’s an emotion she experiences?

I have been trying to remove attention when she is negative but she just ramps up the hysteria until it reaches fever pitch so it hasn’t felt like the right thing to do. Perhaps I need to be more consistent with that approach.

She has so many lovely attributes and I totally adore her, but I can only bloody hope she does grow out of it!

I’ll offer to read her a book at bedtime, she won’t pick a book so I’ll go to leave, then she screams and says she wants a book.. but won’t pick one. Repeat this x 15.

The problem here is that you're negotiating too much. I would nip situations like this in the bud. She can choose a book or you will chose one; at that point, it's this book or no book.

Sorry if that came across as know-it-all parent btw, this was the fruit of trial and error with my DD. It's not easy!

I also have a DS (younger) who was a far more compliant child and ordinary parenting worked with him.

I also love ‘Playful Parenting’ by Laurence Cohen - when I have the energy. It’s about playing out/ through the emotions and behaviour. Really effective and feels warm and authentic.

I have a 7 y.o daughter who is an absolute angel, that probably makes my youngest look bad! They were born 18 months apart, which probably plays a part in her attention seeking.
When I make a firm decision and enforce it, that’s what seems to set her off. Regardless, I rarely negotiate with her. I sometimes feel she needs me to be more flexible, but I refuse to pander to her. I suppose I also worry that the rules have to be the same for both girls, despite the fact they’re different. It’s so hard!

Another good read - The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. Website is www.Livesinthebalance

I agree that it could be anxiety based. My DD went through a dreadful period behaviour- wise when she started school. She was very worried about making the wrong decision which meant she struggled to make any decision at all. E.g., she couldn’t decide which bedtime book she wanted as she was worried she would choose the ‘wrong’ one. Asking her to choose between an apple and a banana for a snack would cause similar meltdowns. She might be halfway through her apple then decide she really wanted the banana etc. So the ‘offer a choice of acceptable options’ techniques that had worked so well with my older child just stressed her out. In the short term, I stopped giving her a choice. ‘Mummy will read your Charlie and Lola book tonight’, ‘you can have a banana for a snack’ etc. It worked for us and she did grow out of it somewhat, although she still worries about making ‘wrong’ choices she no longer has meltdowns about it.

I wonder if choices make her anxious?

If she is very well-behaved at school, then that implies that a very ordered environment with firm limits suits her. This was also true for my DD (though less so than for yours, as my DD would push limits at school to a certain extent - but only if she thought she could get away with it).

I also think it may be that your reactions are making her anxious (this isn't intended to guilt-trip you). You say that:

"She is currently sat outside the bathroom whilst I’m in the bath, she is crying and saying sorry, explaining that she knows how her behaviour is unacceptable and unkind. But I’ve heard this before, she still won’t think twice to do it again (although it’s positive that she does understand). "

I think it might work better to pretend that her behaviour doesn't bother you - with my DD being very brisk and not too emotional was generally best. I think extended "sorries" are not a good idea and I wouldn't engage with this.

Anxiety with choices is a big thing. The other thing that I found with DD3 was that she got "Hangry". I had a very sensible chat with her one day and told her that when she was very angry, I had to be able to say to her "eat" and "drink" and no matter how angry she felt, she had to do as she was told. Even now, if she is completely unreasonable, if I get her to eat or drink a biscuit, or some orange juice/milk, with 5-10 minutes, she's a different child and has a complete personality change.

Now that she's older (9.8), she can tell me afterwards that she was 'Hangry', but she can't tell me at the time, and she doesn't even recognise it then. She just knows that she feels so much better afterwards.

Hmm I’m now wondering if choices do stress her out? They do seem to be a definite trigger, but it hasn’t felt like she’s anxious about making a choice, it feels like she uses that as a deliberate opportunity to be awkward. I will try some of the suggestions here and see if it makes a difference, I suppose that’ll give me an indication.

@Lougle she doesn’t eat well at all. Mealtimes are another source of stress in our house. She’s underweight and just pushes food round her plate. We have always had an excellent meal time routine, we make menu’s based on her preferences, her snacks are regular, well timed and healthy, and she eats plenty of fresh food.

For DD2, it would seem like she was being awkward, too, like she didn't want to choose, or was being incredibly slow to choose. In reality, it's that she's completely terrified of making the wrong choice and regretting the choice she's made, finding out that she should have chosen the choices that she's rejected. Even when she likes the choices she's made, she often experiences 'buyers regret' about the other options, and agonises over her decision.

The more she's hurried, the higher the pressure, the more indecision she feels, the higher the pressure builds, the more indecision she feels.....

They do seem to be a definite trigger, but it hasn’t felt like she’s anxious about making a choice, it feels like she uses that as a deliberate opportunity to be awkward

It's perfectly possible that both of these things are true. Anxious children can be manipulative too. You might need to combine restricted choices with firm limits and an unemotional response.

I meant DD3, not DD2. I wonder if you could reverse psychology it? Could you go to picky snacky teas, where there is just a selection of things she can take from? No expectation, no "plate of food" to be finished. Just take what you want, no more, no less.

It's how they often start with children who did refuse at feeding clinics in hospitals. They have 'picnics' - of course they are actually watching what is eaten, but the children think they are just freely choosing.

It sounds similar to our youngest, who I wonder might have PDA. She’s quite bright educationally, but struggles emotionally.

@mistigri I really thought it was a deliberate ploy to create an opportunity to be argumentative about something, but regardless of whether it is or isn’t, your suggestion seems like the right response entirely

@lougle interesting approach. We do put a lot of pressure on her to eat because she’s so slim, and I guess that’s fuelled by our anxiety that if we don’t make her eat her dinner, she’ll get poorly. I may try a week of ‘tapas’ (dinners but small portions and picky bits) and try and watch her preferences x

@3out another parent who knows my youngest well, gently suggested this to me the other day. So I suppose thats made me more alert to her behaviours.

Is she in reception? It's a shit time of year too much excitement, dealing with a term at school and too much going on. I think most of them are like that at this time of year to be honest, they need the holidays. Mine were DREADFUL.

I understand completely. I have an interesting collection of children myself. DD1 (13) has SN and goes to special school, and DD2 (11) has ASD. DD1 is on the 1st centile for BMI, with a really poor appetite, so I can completely understand the anxiety of seeing them pushing their fork around the plate aimlessly, then sighing and putting it down.

Dd1 is 7 but a lot of this sounds hugely familiar - especially the choices thing & hungry although my dd1 is overweight so I have to be super careful.
I always thought giving choices and letting her guide herself was positive but if it makes anxious I might have to work on direction.
Thanks OP- food for thought