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Parenting

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Real vs. disposable nappy debate

108 replies

SAHMof1 · 23/05/2007 20:07

In a House of Commons debate yesterday Ivan Lewis (Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Department of Health) said ?It has to be said that a report by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs found that, in the end, in terms of overall environmental consequences, there was very little difference between disposable and reusable nappies.?

Why are they still using that report when it is known to be flawed!

OP posts:
SAHMof1 · 24/05/2007 10:07

More than 100 viruses are excreted in human faeces, including those that cause hepatitis and polio. Newly vaccinated babies excrete live polio vaccine for several weeks after the jab. Dumped in landfill sites, these viruses survive for many days, posing a health threat to sanitation workers and groundwater supplies.

OP posts:
theUrbanDryad · 24/05/2007 10:36

i didn't think they used the live polio vaccine these days?

MissGolightly · 24/05/2007 10:56

I think urbandryad is right - the new polio vaccine is not excreted.

But I think technically you aren't suppose to dispose of human excrement in your dustbin.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

chilledmama · 24/05/2007 11:16

Poor binmen!!!

tutu100 · 24/05/2007 11:58

By law I think anything contaminated with human bodily products is supposed to be incinerated. You are supposed to empty poo from nappies down the toilet, but IME very few people do.

chilledmama · 24/05/2007 13:18

I'll bet the only people that do are the ones that only use the odd disp nappy..oh yes, that'll be us again!!!

snugglebumnappies · 24/05/2007 16:56

Ohh had this convo recently with a group of Independent Midwives re; disposal of placentas and I think after a bit of research it was found that the only thing it is illegal to dispose of in a domestic bin is human tissue. But in a hospital all nappies, sanitary products, inco products have to be treated as clinical waste.

NannyL · 24/05/2007 19:03

Having read the whole report.... here is my opinion on it

Here is the link should you want to read it:

www.environment-agency.gov.uk/commondata/acrobat/nappies_1072099.pdf

you will see that this is May 2005 and one of the biggest studies of its kind. Also the one that most people refer to.

You can read all 130ish pages, + 50 pages of appendix if you like.... OR i will summarise it for you for people who cant be bothered.

they assume that 1/3 of people wash their nappies at 90c (i disagree!) table5.7
they assume 10% of nappies are ironed (5.14.7)
they assume 60% of nappies are tumble dried.... (if you look it says their survey sugested that 19% of people tumble dry their nappies but because 75% of household use a dryer they decided to use a figure of 60% (off the top of their heads basicaly)(9.3.2)
they assume 50% of people add softner to their nappies im sure anyone who uses nappies KNOWS that you do NOT ever add softner to nappies cause it stops them from absorbing.... (also consider the enivironmental impact of the softner.... and of manufacturing the softener.... and of driving to sthe supermarket to by the softener and of the softener going down the drain etc etc) (5.14.5)

It also assumes most people SOAK their nappies and allows 10 litres of water per day.... on top of 75 litres per washing machine load.... a large overestimate on the amount of water most modern machines, having recently got a new washing machine trust me i KNOW, so 85 litres of water per day (5.14.2)

They assume that people have 47.5 'terry nappies' nappies per 6 months (9.3.5)...
and then asses the full environmental impact of manufacturing all that cotton to make 47.5 nappies per 6 months.... and its the [b]MANUFACTURE and water used during manufacture that is basically the major environmetal 'problem / issue with' washables[/b]

also they acknowledge and justify this figure and in the same sentance say that actualy only an average of 40 nappies are bought for the LIFE of the child (personaly i cant believe that is an accuare average.... does anyone know anyone with more than 40 nappies?... EVERY person i know has LOADS less)

Its is assumed that 12 nappies are washed at a time (5.14.7) and that it takes a WHOLE HOUR to iron 12 cotton nappies.... and they use that figure of electricity... ie an iron on for an hour to iron 12 cotton sqaures..... [maybe 12 seconds would be more accurate? or 0 seconds for ironing nappies!]

FOR disposable nappies they assume just over 4 (4.05) nappies per day... this is a LOW estimate IMO especially when you consider new born babies (9.1)

In the summary they conclude that reuasable users should reduce they energy they use washing and drying nappies.

SO..... they DO over estimate the washing temperatures, water use, tumble dryer use and iron....

they also allow for FAR too many nappies being manufactured (washables) and asses the environmental imopat of the commercial manufacture of the cotton...

(no mention of [b]bamboo[/b] which is a much more environmantally friendly material and becoming increasing popular with washable nappies)
then there is the fact that loads of people who choose washables are 'environmentally aware' people who are likely to be using less than 'conventional' washing detergents... such as soap nuts or eco balls, and are likely to be using more energy effiecient machines, due to the way they think.

the fact that they only allow for 12 nappies being washed per load then 60% tumble dried (when only 19% of their survey suggested they tumble dried their nappys, AND allowed 1 hour of electric for the iron per load).... yet allow for the maufacture of nearly 200 nappier PER CHILD just shoes how rediculosue this whole study was!

chilledmama · 25/05/2007 09:38

Wow NannyL- Thanks for that!

I have to say...I have loads more nappies than I need. I wasn't brave enough to go for 2 part system so bought Kushie Ultras for DS initially (a good half way house IMO). I have since worked out that its really not that difficult to do 2 part nappy and wish I had been more brave (and sensible). I have been road testing 3 different nappies for next size up (Sandy's, Bamboozle and Bumble). They are all very good but the Bumble has the edge over the Bamboozle.

I wash roughly 2 days worth of nappies at a time (@ 10 nappies) but this doesn't mean I use more water...my machine 'senses' how much is needed and uses that amount...like a super duper half load button!

I don't tumble dry (I don't even have a dryer) but its not particularly good for Kushies (reduces life span significantly) so wouldn't. I suppose if I did have one there is always the temptation if you really need something quickly but it just takes a bit of forward planning!!

IRONING WTF...Do you know anyone that irons nappies???
I once caught my DH about to iron the boosters and just about shot him...he said but you iron evrything!!! I pointed out that I don't iron his pants either and if if tryied that again he could go and and pay more money for more boosters as he would have melted them!!! Stupid man...but was 'Only trying to help' 'I can't do anything right!' No dear you can't!!!

I'm sure huggies and pampers are paying the government to keep quiet...especially when everyone is going mental about bin collections/council tax/landfill problems!!!

No talks about the wet wipes either???

What do you use, wet wipes or washable wipes with water?? I bet I know the answer to that one too!!!

SAHMof1 · 25/05/2007 11:43

Wow NannyL - great summary!

When I wrote an e-mail to EA about their report, and asking them if they were going to do a new realistic report, I got the response from Terry Coleman ([email protected]). It said ?The new study is looking at nappies that were in use in 2006 and so will reflect developments and changes in market share since the data for the first study were collected. It will reflect whatever the environmental costs and benefits are for these new systems and won't be dependent on the previous results.? Anyone been involved in this? Or know when it?s due to be released?

OP posts:
chilledmama · 25/05/2007 19:16

Again probably sponsored by Pampers and Huggies!!

I haven't heard about it...

spacegrantham · 26/05/2007 12:22

Flame, well done on winning the local radio competiton , you see Karma counting in your favour cause you do good things for the world. Selling and advertising re-useables is a very good thing.

What did you have to do to win , very interested !

Kim

LazyLine · 26/05/2007 12:51

SO the survey assumes that 12 nappies are washed each time, and the survery seems to say that you wash every day.

SO.....with resuables, they think that you use 12 nappies every day!! Wet pail (eurgh) 12 nappies every day and wash 12 nappies every day. For ONE child. And yet if you were to use disposables, you would only need 4 nappies a day.

Nobbins.

NannyL · 26/05/2007 17:55

yup the report is highly contradictory throughout

it also assumes that after 6 months you buy new washable nappies, or at least thats how i interpretted it.

and even though their own survey suggest 19% of nappy loads are tumble dried they for no good reason chose to assume 60% of laods were tumble dried

I will NEVER understand how they decided it takes 5 mins to iron 1 nappy square either .... anyone iron nappies then?

chilledmama · 26/05/2007 19:41

As I said before...We'll be allowed in heaven and they'll all burn in landfill hell!!!

I can't believe anyone would actually iron nappies???? I don't have time to iron many things...not going to waste valuable MN time ironing something thats going to be weed and pooed on!!!!!!

morocco · 26/05/2007 21:39

lol chilledmama
wonder if they're actually going to come and speak to any of us who actually use washable nappies this time round then?
I might have about 40 nappies by now but this is my third baby and I am going to sell on some of my size ones soon honest! and even tho I wet pail, it's all from left over bath water - reuse recycle and all that

ann1361 · 28/05/2007 13:09

I am so sick and tired of seening excusses for using disposables coming up on top.

You do not have to wash washables at 90c and tumble dry!

Why are mums doing that in the first place you could was at lower temps if you soaked nappies in bucket before you put in a washing machine, if you soaked the nappy after use you wouldn't have to wash at 90c to take staines out.

It is so much easier for mums to use cloth nappies these days, lots of different nappies and wraps around with shaped and fleece nappies and waterproof wraps that you have no need to wash at 90c.

Most up to date fabrics used in nappy making for cloth is washed at 40c and can easily be put on washing line or on airer inside the house, as they dry really quick.

I know that i prefer to use cloth more healthier than disposables they stink more when wet than a washable, disposables have so many chemicals in them when they are being made, and if you are happy with that then thats up to you!

As for landfill those who use dispoables should pay higher for dispossing of them as it is so unfair on those who don't use them, the amount of families round my area that use disposables and fill their bins up high with them is more that 90% and when you have a hot day the smell is unbareable, at least with washable ones you can wash them and hang on line and they don't smell as awfull.

I know everyone has the choice but i think of my child and i prefer cloth every time!

octo · 28/05/2007 13:54

It astounds me every time that people honestly believe disps are better than cloth. I personally don't see why everyone can't use cloth or atleast part time - someone needs to give me a genuinely blimin good excuse - anyone ......?????? I think being on holiday is justified but apart from that no reason why not.

I also find it disturbing that people have to justify why they do use cloth over disps - like using cloth is weird or something. I always use the scrotum/temp thing everytime - works a treat

Could go on for hours with this one but ds3 yelling somewhat!

SAHMof1 · 02/07/2007 19:18

Further mention(s) in the House of Commons on 29 Jun 2007 on landfill and nappy decomposition. Again, quoting/using THAT REPORT!

OP posts:
morocco · 02/07/2007 23:07

just emailed ivan
who else is going to then???

fairysnuff · 02/07/2007 23:35

I always feel just awful when I use a disp.
I am bad though, I use one every night (can't stand the smell) but the rest of the day I am a reusable fan.
Thanks for that run down NannyL, it made it easier to understand.

I just figure most disp users are either squeamish or misinformed.

And these reports are not helping matters!

Good idea on the bath water though, I will remember that for the early days of DC2, whenever they may arrive

Flamesparrow · 02/07/2007 23:56

I wash at 40 even withouth soaking, no stain issues.

Fairysnuff - why use the disp at night?? Don't you get leaks (or it could just be the shape of my babies)?? You could have some loooooooooooooovely bedtime fluff

chilledmama · 03/07/2007 00:02

Ben Bradshaw is the bloke we need to email. I just emailed him and sent him the link to this thread in the hope he might actually cotton on (no pun intended)!!

Night night all.

bookthief · 03/07/2007 00:08

Where did they find one person who irons their nappies?????

Come on, own up, where are the nappy ironers?

This report was widely, and inaccurately, quoted in the press at the time and is pretty much all that most people seem to know about cloth nappies. A lot of people have said "of course they are just as bad for the environment" when they find out I'm using cloth. Even people without babies seem to know this "fact".

Flamesparrow · 03/07/2007 00:11

I spend sooo much time facing that little "fact"!

(I nearly did iron nappies today though - I had dyed some disana tie on ones for a customer, and as I was folding them up to post back, was thinking how nice they would look all fresh and ironed! I did come to my senses though - I don't iron clothes, let alone someone else's nappies!!)