Very worried about friend...

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Im going to be a bit vague as this is potentially outing and I really don't want to upset the person involved. Im sorry if this is drip feeding, I just need to be careful what I say. I have a good friend who has a baby girl is who is 7 months old and has been tricky as babies go, didn't thrive in the early days, difficult to settle and get to sleep, refluxy etc. My friend is a first time mum and is really struggling. She has good support from her dh, and family and friends offer support but she is very reluctant to take help and advice (can be defensive) and is fixated on keeping the baby to a very strict routine that isn't working for the baby. This is resulting in both of them being stressed and unhappy. As an example, we recently met up for a social gathering and she spent 2 hours in a separate room trying to get the baby to nap on her scheduled nap time, the baby didn't want to sleep because there was stuff going on and generally didn't seem that tired, slept for half hour and then wanted to be awake, but the sleep schedule was persisted with until they were both in a complete state and stressed and unhappy and in tears. I've spoken to her about how she's coping and she says just tired but I'm worried there may be an element of pnd or anxiety that she isn't getting help with. I don't want to keep offering advice that she doesn't want to accept either as I don't want to come across as interfering. I'm not judging her, i know it's hard work being a first time mum, I'm just very worried that the stress of this routine is grinding her down and taking the joy out of what should be a fun time as well as hard work. I'm not really in a position to offer much in the way of child care at the mo as I work full time and I'm 8 months pregnant also. What I'm basically asking is what would you do to support her?

How do you know the routine isn’t working for the baby? Has she told you, or are you and others discussing her choices and telling her she’s just stressing herself and the baby out? The reason I ask is that I had a very similar sounding DC1, and constantly getting advice and opinions from others who’d had easy babies that always slept/fed with no problem (or didn’t even have kids yet) nearly sent me over the edge. She’s the mother and she has to decide whether the routine works or not.

Just keep in touch, take her for coffee, ask if you can help by taking baby for a pram walk at the designated nap time, and STOP GIVING ADVICE.

Thanks for that, like I said I've stopped giving advice, the routine is clearly causing both her and the baby a lot of stress. She hardly leaves the house. Everything around the baby is very tense and causing her a lot of stress, feeding time, play time, nap time, I'm just worried for her that's all.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but she probably is extremely tired, and worried she’s getting it wrong. She may be fine on her own and confident in her choices at home, until well meaning friends and family start questioning/advising/telling her to drop the routine etc. I’m saying she might be coming across as very stressed and anxious because of all the well meaning commentary. With more of a “you know what your doing” approach she may be more relaxed around people, or actually open up without feeling the need to defend her choices.

I’m on DC3 and still making it up as I go along. The difference is everyone assumes I know what I’m doing and it wouldn’t occur to them to comment any more...

And I suppose I am projecting from my own first time mum experience. I think what helped then was the kind of “you’re doing great, it’s hard work” type of approach, which would either help or allow me yo break down and say “I’m not because...”. And also friends who would talk about and invite me to do things that weren’t baby related, so I felt I was still a normal person rather than just “mum to a very difficult baby”.

Your damned if you do damned if you don’t.

Try and ignore it and put it out of your mind. Soon they both will find their groove and you don’t want to ruin a good friendship intervening.

If that baby is warm clean, cuddled and fed then step back - how ever hard it is!

I've offered a couple times to take the baby out to give her a break (as has her mum) but she's not ready to be apart from her yet. I've offered to meet up for coffee etc but she won't go out very often unless it's a special occasion because it disrupts the baby's routine, so we spend a lot of time at her house and I just listen and nod and make a lot of sympathetic noises, but I feel like that's not being all that helpful to her if you see what I mean.. you see it on here all the time that people feel like they aren't getting enough support from their friends and I honestly don't know what to do. I hate seeing her cry because she can't get her baby to nap, when the baby isn't tired... i guess I just don't want to be a crap friend and have her look back on this in years to come and wonder why nobody helped.

Do you have any kids yet op? I’ve had two who were a nightmare to get to nap. They might have seemed ‘not tired’, but my god they were over tired and fought and fought sleep. My other child would just nod off whenver they needed to.

Even saying the baby is clearly not tired is your judgment, based on your own experience (or if you don’t have kids yet, your expectations of what babies should do). She’s judging based on her own experience of her own baby.

You sound like a lovely supportive friend. Nodding and making sympathetic noises and being there is probably the best thing you can do until the baby gets easier, which will happen with time...

Yes I have a son already and another on the way.

7 months old and she hasn't even had a few hours break?
Not ready to leave the baby after that long? I could understand with a younger baby but not a 7 month old.
I would guess there is something underlying going on and maybe her mum or husband need to talk to her?
I love my DD but all mums need a small break every now and again.
Especially when you are doing all the childcare, to not ever want to leave the house because of a routine is ridiculous, she can't stay in forever, it's good for babies to get out and about.
Routines are great but even the best behaved babies don't stick to them constantly.
My guess is she is struggling and doesn't want to admit it to herself through fear of looking like a failure or that people will judge- which obviously wouldn't be the case.
Standby her and just do what you can. If you know her mum or DH maybe talk to them about your concerns. X

I think she has left the baby with her dh a couple of times to pick up some Christmas shopping sorry. That was a bit misleading, but they have not been apart for long.

I had a very difficult first baby, and was surrounded by people who proffered their unasked for advice which went completely against what i felt was right for me. E.g. let them cry for a while, it will develop their lungs etc etc... I'll never forget the one woman who said to me 'it's really hard and you're doing a great job'. I broke down and cried with her, and felt SO much better. My eldest dc is 12 years old and i still remember that moment as one of the most poignant and supportive comments of the baby years. So maybe less advice and keep listening to her and if she's not ready to be apart from her baby while you take it out, offer to sit with the baby while she has a bath, or a nap, or take food round.

One of the first things I read after having dd2 in a parenting book was that to let your social life go out the window for a while while you concentrate on babies routine.

Leave her be. Let her do it her own way. I think your intent is to have posters tell you to intervene but most will tell you to back off and stop being so over invested

Ok thanks. I'll do just that. Like I said, I don't keep offering advice because I know how that feels, I don't have any intent, I just want to be a good friend. I've changed some of the details as it's potentially a bit outing so it may seem like I'm over-invested but I'm not really. I'll keep my gob shut, my ears open and the coffee flowing.

I completely understand your concerns.

I had a friend who was absolutely fixated on routines and milk intake. When the baby hit the designated nap time my friend would be shaking with nerves when the baby wouldn’t sleep, her anxiety over the whole thing was actually quite scary. She’s be manically rocking the crying baby, begging for it to sleep and almost being in tears when her baby wouldn’t sleep exactly when she wanted to.

Her attitude towards feeding the baby was most concerning though as she calculated how many mls the baby should be having at each feed and she would not stop until the baby had taken that volume. She would be forcing the bottle into its mouth, shaking it from side to side and repeatedly telling the baby, who would be crying by this point, that he HAD to have his milk. She would basically force him to drink it even if it took her an hour. He wasn’t even allowed to leave 10mls in the bottle without her panicking and the stress and anxiety was just pouring out of her. Watching her feed the baby was actually quite upsetting to watch we both she and the baby were so distressed.

A few of us all had concerns about her so we agreed that the friend who was closest to her would approach her and say we were worried about how (or if) she was coping. Our friend did then speak to her HV, who referred her to the GP and she was diagnosed with PND. The baby was about 9 months old when we spoke out to her but we’d actually had concerns for months but we hadn’t said anything because we didnt want to interfere. However, it reached the point that we all knew her behaviour wasn’t just normal worried and anxieties so we had to let her know how we felt. It wasn’t easy but looking back I think she needed someone who was looking in to tell her that her behaviour wasn’t normal for her to seek help. She knew herself that she wasn’t acting rationally and I think that when we also acknowledged that she was relieved becsuse she didn’t feel so alone in it all anymore.

You know your friend OP, and if something in your heart is telling you that something is not right then I would speak to her because she may need more support than just a listening ear and some coffee.

Only you know how strange her behaviour is and the fact you can’t on here to seek advice indicates to me that your worries go deeper than just standard concern.

It could easily be that the baby is even worse if she doesn't stick to that routine, its easy to think 'they must be doing something wrong' if you've only had easy babies.

Shes likely doing what shes found works best, that doesn't mean the baby will automatically be settled, from what you said she sounds high needs so will likely still cry whatever your friend does, but probably to a lesser extent.

One of my DC was born with a very fussy nature, didn't like to sleep and when she did would wake after 1-2 hours max so was always overtired, had reflux/colic so would cry and not be able to settle for ages. We did nothing different with our other 2 DC and they barely ever cried and sleep well.
Don't assume you know better than she does about her own baby.

It doesn't sound like she is happy. Can't believe how many people are saying to not say anything or it's fine or could be worse if the baby doesn't sleep at a certain time. She needs to relax a bit more, the baby will sleep when needed and a late nap when she is out wouldn't hurt. Would do her good to socialise rather than stay in a separate room for 2 hours getting upset and stressed.
Not really sure what you can do to help as don't think she would listen to advise but suppose you can try be there for her.