Discipline - when to start

[MrShev]

I have been doing a bit of a straw poll of my friends who have children about when is a good age to start laying down da law. My best friend who has two well adjusted young daughters reckons that 1yr is the age when one should start saying no to them and encouraging good behavior.

My son is 10.5 months and is generally a pretty happy kid and we have - pretty much - child proofed our house, so he can't really wreck much: we see this stage as discovery, exploration and playing. My gut says this is right. Are we???

But, he does a couple of annoying things. He grabs my glasses from my face and chucks them and we have decided to get tough on this. Also, he pulls hair, and we are also going to get tough.

But what about dropping food on the floor? Isn't it just great that he eats? Isn't it par for the course that mealtimes will be messy?

I just don't know...

Help!

MrShev - I will be watching this thread with interest as me and DH keep having the same discussion.

I am keen to let him explore so I don't like saying no to him - although he does show a very keen interest in the DVD/Sky players and we cannot think of a way of child-proofing them.

When we do try and say no, he turns around, gives ua a really (cute) cheeky grin and then just carries on.

We have the same problem - when he pulls my glasses off he is just happy and it fills my heart with joy.

DS is now totally bored with Sky box / DVD they don't do anything!

We put crappy CDs on the bottom shelf of our CD tower (Celine, Savage Garden, give aways etc) and he has destroyed them, but now has zero interest in CDs or DVDs. I'm not sure this is a great strategy though - let him crash the car?
M

It's a tough one - they do need to learn that some actions (hair pulling etc - in my youngest's case, biting) are unacceptable, but they're obviously too young to understand why - they don't comprehend cause and effect, eg if you bite Mummy that will hurt her. Distraction is more effective, I think but they do need to understand what "no" means.

Lol - my DS is the same with glasses - I let him take mine on and off and he loves it!

Have to admit DS got bored of the fireguard when he realised that it didn't do anything and after he had pulled it on top of himself twice. He has also lost interest in the wine rack for the same reason - so maybe the DVD player will soon become boring too.

Well, you may never need to start with 'punitive' discipline. My ds is nearly Five and he has never been what you would call punished. On a handful of occasions he has had timeout in his room, when he's either been having a huge tantrum that he just can't stop, or when he's been deliberately doing something I've said no to repeatedly. But that's it.

Otherwise during his life, distraction has been a HUGELY useful tool. Certainly babies and 1 and 2 year olds need distraction rather than any other thing in my view. According to the NSPCC, a child under two does not do things simply to be naughty, it's all basically experimenting with their effect on the world.

The other big help to me was expecting childlike behaviour from a child; make sure your expectations are age appropriate! I think sometimes people feel the weight of other people's expectations,for instance they try to MAKE their child share a toy and then punish the child if they don't; whereas it may be more age appropriate to encourage taking turns, or to ask the child to find another toy for the other child; etc etc.

Also make sure that expectations of behaviour aren't too high. You have to curtail adult stuff sometimes if you want not to have to punish your child, for example I was in a cafe where parents were sitting with their two kids, who behaved angelically, all through the meal...the parents even read the paper and sent text messages while they waited for the pudding, and the kids amused each other beautifully. Then the parents made them wait for coffee afterwards, and more paper-reading; the kids had had ENOUGH, they'd been so good but the parents expected to be able to spend hours sitting at a table without entertaining the kids at all, and then proceeded to moan and shout at them for being naughty. They weren't naughty, they were extremely well behaved but they had been pushed too far.

But my point is it is possible not to have to do anything too formal in the way of discipline.

Thank you SSU, very interesting points that seem to chime with me.

My son who is 8 now still drops food on the floor. Actually, sometimes i do too.

We pick it up and put it in the bin. 10 month old is a wee bit small for that bit yet, but children generally learn by sharing ideas and from modelling of behaviours, when their brains are ready to be able to do so.

Saying no is not discipline, its enforcing your own opinion on something, regardless of the safety and health aspects. Instead of saying No, Dont drop food, try something like, Yes! Food that drops on the floor goes in the bin - like this!

Why say no? Its possible to put forward your wishes without using no or yes, just giving the information too - like - ooo, lets try to keep the food on the plate so we can enjoy it. Do an search on Gentle Discipline or there is a thread here too discussing 'How to talk to your kids....' (the book - vvv good) or Alfie Kohn has some interesting ideas too that i really like (and based in research).

Pulling hair hurts - tell him that it hurts you. Same with hitting. There are are very few instances where hitting is OK - such as in certain sports, self-defense maybe so telling him its NOT OK or bad is not really true. Tell him your FEELINGS and by doing this, hopefully you will help him learn about his own feelings, empathy and respect, rather than doing something because a 'bigger person tells me too.'

An on-going, never-ending process of learning - good for ALL of us.

Agree with sunnyside up - nice post

No problem. I think your gut feeling is right. I would also be firm on the glasses and hair pulling thing, also on things like biting and hitting of course; but my point is that you just need a firm NO and then either remove yourself or the child from the scene of the crime; but so many people seem to want to punish at this point, either going on and on to the child, or putting them in their room, or taking toys away or even a smack (bizarrely). It is JUST as effective if you say the firm no, move away, then get on to some other fun activity that your child can enjoy.

Your child can be giggling and laughing five seconds after being told no for one of these misdemeanours - that's really OK. They are learning just as much from that approach as they would be if you really laboured the point tbh.

and I agree with you, too Squid

10.5 months is still very little. I would accept that meal times are going to be messy until at least three or four years old. (Or until you can reasonable expect a child to use a knife and fork independently) Making messes with food is part of being a baby.

If mess really bothers you then I would invest in a PVC cloth that you can put under the high chair. Not allowing babies to attempt to feed themselves limits their development.

With my five year old son, I get him to "help" clear up any mess. This is not done as a punishment, but teaching responsiblity. He will now make a reasonable attempt at cleaning up mess unaided.

I started getting him to "help" with clearing up as a baby, but it was really nothing more than a game. I used to given my son a damp dish cloth and we would wipe the tray of his high chair together. My son thought this was brilliant fun at 10 months and used to eat the dish cloth. It helped him with teething as well.

Grabbing the glasses is difficult. I think that you can't do much other than say "no". if you want to be tougher and saying "no" hasn't worked is gently put your son down on the floor and end the cuddle.

What age do you start discipline? I think that you start teaching your child discipline from birth! However the word "discipline" is different to punishment. If you think about it teaching your two week old baby the difference between day and night is an extremely gentle form of discipline.

I think its better to think of child as a disciple who needs to be shown what is expected of them rather than thinking about punishments.

My DS (13m) just will not leave the DVD, Sky Box and our Stereo alone. I've tried the firm 'no', tried distracting him. He also laughs when we say 'no' so I will also watch this thread with interest. I have tried to pick my battles with him and not say 'no' all the time, but it seems that these forbidden things are his absolute favourites.

when ds was fascinated with the dvd and video player I used to sit with him while he had a little play with them. He knew he could touch them when I was there only and this worked for us. I would explain that he had to touch gently.

After a few minutes he was bored anyway, like kids are with any activity. Perhaps the fact that I hadn't barred him from touching it made it less fascinating?

I'm with SSS totally. I go with distraction and divertion wherever possible. If your not careful you can find that you are always saying No.
As a child I was always being sent to my room and not really knowing why. I started to think that everything I did was always wrong or that I just wasn't liked.
Most frustating kiddie behaviour is grown out of naturally without behavioural techniques or discipline. (in my experience).

When he first started touching them I left him in the hope he'd get bored. He then broke the DVD player and still isn't bored of them! His absolute favourite thing is to take out the Sky card abd hide it.

at 13 months you're with him pretty much all the time I would think - I think it's a case of sitting right next to him and showing him how you touch it.

If you need to go out of the room for the loo or to put the kettle on or something, at this age I really think a playpen is a good idea. We used a travel cot for ds at this stage. It's just a case of not letting him get into things he shouldn't when you're not in the room; and when you are there you can give him your gentle guidance about how to touch things.

I'm with SSU.

DS is 2 and has never had much punishment - only in specific instances -he has had time out for hitting/biting after being warned - (but either DH or I sit with him for his time out) and he has had toys/objects removed if he is banging things with them ('stop banging the TV with the spoon or Mummy will take it away' kind of thing).

At 10 months, it was more saying 'No' firmly to pulling hair/glasses etc and changing tone of voice etc. Took a while but eventually he got the message

Interesting thread - I also keep wondering whether I deal with my DS's (14months) hair pulling, face slapping and glasses snatching in the right way. At the moment I just say NO very firmly, stop smiling so he sees I'm not playing, and put him down. But then I'll try instantly to get him interested in something else.

Conversely, I've had great success with teaching him to "give mummy a Big Kiss", this phrase causes him to lunge at me mouth open and tongue waggling. It's hilarious.

You can't say 'no' to your children, One must discuss and reason. Explain why something is unacceptable. There is never a need to shout if one can parent properly.

I agree with the distraction comments - 10 months is really too young for discipline to have much effect (and you're probably better saving your energy for a few months time when you'll need it!) But when they do start testing the boundaries big time distraction is by far and away the best (initial) response and if you are in the habit of using it it will make life much easier.

FFF, I think I would have to amend your comment to "you can't say only no to your children, one must also discuss and explain." There is nothing wrong with children hearing the word NO. But I agree there is usually no need to shout it.

If a child is occassionally shouted "No" at, it will do no long term harm. OK in an ideal world you would never shout at your children, but parents are human. A 10 month old baby is not going to understand why its a bad idea to stick hands in a plug socket which have been covered with dribble. Again in an utopian existance your baby's surrroundings would be 100% child proofed.

Its worth perfecting the art of non verbal signals. Sometimes shouting at a child can turn up the "heat" of a situation. Ie. you shout and then the child shouts back. For example if you shake your head at the same time as saying no you are communicating both visually and verbally.

If you learn how to give your child that "look" that stops them in their tracks then you are an extremely lucky mum. There are many situations like a being in church where it can be useful to give praise non verbally to encourage good behaviour.