Don't we have to give our children some freedom sometimes?

[Blandmum]

This really isn't meant to be an inflamatory post. I don't want this to become a slanging match.

Although it has been prompted by the dreadful case of the poor child abducted in Portugal, it isn't a thread about that awful situation.

There but for the grace of god, is my feeling an that thread.

Last holiday we went to a large campsite. My kids loved the extra freedom that we gave them. They were allowed to cycle without us, and were even allowed to go to the on site shop in the morning to buy breakfast! I'm not exagerating in saying that for them , this was the best bit of the holiday. It was ggod for them

They are 10 and 7. They could have been snatched at any time. Thank god they were not. I was nervous doing this, but felt that while I have a duty to keep my kids safe, I also have a duty to give them some freedom. they need frerdom to develop. And some times that means being without adult supervision.

At thei age I was walking to school alone. They hardly have an unsupervised moment.

How to we square this circle?

Please I'd love thoughts, but not a rehash of the awfulness of the current case.

Firstly I agree with all of you, I have a 4 and 3 year old so a few years off yet, but I'm sad when I look back to the freedom I had and yet kids now dont seem to have that freedom. Not sure of my age, but I was a Junior School, used to take a packed lunch and go out with my friends for the day, Mum had no idea where I was, I just had to take 10p for a phone call.

Do you think its due to the publicity now, I'm sure horrendous things happened years ago but we just generally didnt know about it.

The thing is, I was not given much freedom at all as a child - ironically, much of the in-the-park molestation was because I wasn't allowed a door key so a couple of times when school finished early I had to go into town 'to the library' and read in the nearby park rather than go home. Otherwise, I was kept in a very cotton-woolly state: driven to school which was across town, indoors in the evenings (because my friends lived across town) and not allowed to cross the road alone till I was 10 or so.

I actively want my kids to have a bit more engagement with the world, not to say the nous to be rude to some strange perve who asks to see the colour of their knickers

Re the world changing, I do think there's less of an attitude among adults that we're all responsible for children now.

I do remember feeling that if I were accosted by bullies, for example, I could turn to an adult to intervene and protect me. I'm not sure children nowadays feel that, or could count on it if they did feel it.

I think attitudes have changed though. When I was about 14 our school field was reseeded & we went in our aertex shirts & navy knickers to the college over the road, with the students leching at us all the way.

It was a police cadet college

I disagree about bullies. Bullying is now taken seriously by schools in a way it never was when I was a child.

I just don't agree that life 30 years ago was a paradise, or that the world is notably more dangerous for all children now. I think kids are more aware of paedophilia and - to some degree - of the actions they can potentially take to counter bullying at school, or people who try and touch them inappropriately.

The year 6s at DD1's school tend to walk to school on their own/with their mates. It's really nice. It's a rite of passage for them, and prepares them for next year when they will - gasp - be getting the bus to their secondary schools.

I'm not talking about bullies at school MI, but out on the street, without a specific adult authority figure.

Giantsquirrel - I would say there's more of an attitude that we (as parents) are completely, 100% responsible for our children rather than a broad collective. I know we don't want to bring that thread into it but someone on there was saying, well wouldn't they be 'held accountable' if something had happened because they left the children on their own (?!). I think that sort of (almost legal) reasoning happens a lot more now.

I doubt my parents thought about whether they were legally responsible or not about letting us go out on our bikes or leaving us in a hotel room while they had a meal. Yet, when a thread like 'shall we leave our kids in the room while we have a drink' comes up inevitably someone brings out the 'you are legally responsible for them' reasoning.

My children are 20, 17 and 5. We have gone through a lot of setting boundaries as to when they could do what by themselves - it may not be fair, but ds was allowed more freedom earlier than dd1.
I'm not sure how I feel about mobile phones either. Obviously they can be hugely useful, but I find myself asking dd1 to ring me when she gets to her friends - and when she forgets I worry but I try not to ring her. Last year she went to Reading Festival with 2 friends - both also 17 - and she rang us mid morning and around midnight each day. When I went youth hostelling (and hitch hiking!) as a 17 yr old my parents didn't see or hear from me for 10 days - they had no phone at all, never mind a mobile.
dd2 cycles ahead of me on the pavement and can be round the corner before I'm even on my bike! But where is the fun in cycling slowly when you are 5?
Waffling now. I suppose we tried to do it all gradually, so there was not a big leap from mollycoddling to expecting them to cope.

I agree mb.
thankfully we live in a village where a lot of children of 5+ socialise at the playground on their own after school. I started to let dd1 go on her own recently - she's 7.
Of course I worry - not really about traffic because that's not an issue between there and home - but about someone taking her. But as she's a bit of a couch potato at home and really, really active on the playground I feel that the danger of heart disease or whatever outweighs that of abduction, all things considered.
TBH, someone could snatch her from the garden if they were so inclined. Life is never without risks.

I've been pondering over this issue a little more.

I think there is a difference between giving your children freedom and 'teaching' them to be independent. Letting children have a lot of freedom doesn't necessarily mean they will learn to make good decisions about the world around them.

I doubt very much that my DDs could learn how to negotiate busy roads, traffic, public transport, shops etc... without me or someone teaching her how to deal with those things.

I do feel I can help her to develop her independence whilst I am by her side. i.e. I can allow her to make the decision as to where and when it is safe to cross the road. I can let her locate the cashier and pay for her shopping whilst I am still in the shop. That means I am there to step-in if she acts in a way that is going to endanger her or if she needs extra assistance and can't work it out for herself.

People don't learn to drive by venturing out in a car by themselves. The driving instructor slowly hands over control. The learner driver's skills and confidence grow. They pass their test, then they are let out on their own, and their confidence grows more.

I do agree that children need to be able to play with their friends without constant adult supervision and intervention.

I do also agree with others that we look back upon our own childhoods with fuzzy nostalgia especially wrt playing in dens and woods and being out all day with our parents not knowing where we were.

Is that a necessary part of child development and if it is can someone explain whI remember fondly doing those things but I also remember making mud pies in the front garden, climbing trees, tedning to my own flower bed, walks in the country, walks on a wintery beach, playing in the park on the swings. People what we remember fondly is playing outside. As a child I was not aware of the potential risks of playing in the woods or even near water! So, I can't say that risk made that type of play more exciting or interesting.

One of the most spectacular bollockings I got as a 5/6 year old was when my dad tracked me down in some forbidden woods. Perhaps all those occasions we remember playing in the woods or far away from home, we were actually disobeying our parents and we had been warned not to play where we ended up playing. Or perhaps we remember the distance with out little children brains and the places we played weren't so far away after all.

Anyway, whilst I'd certainly let my 7 and 10 year old cycle around a campsite or visit the campsite shop alone, I can't understand the other people who come on these threads and take a sort of moral highground on a sliding scale of how far and for how long you'll let your children out of your sight. And the younger the child, the more smug the parent sometimes sounds!

Sorry - I wrote a book

I think I feel the same as Marthamoo. Ds is 9 and has been allowed to go into mens loos on his own for a couple of years now but it still sometimes makes me uneasy and I'm much happier when dh or ex dh are around to go in with him.

I recently started letting him go to the local shop for the odd thing, it's five minutes walk, with no roads to cross and I've made him take my mobile phone while I hold dh's mobile and he knows how to call me if he's worried about anything. He usually calls me, probably just to check he can, and although I've only let him do this around 3 times I've had my heart in my mouth every time. I kind of think myself pathetic for it but he's not a very worldly 9yo. He doesn't know what a paedophile is quite rightly imo) and is quite innocent in a lot of ways.

I don't have to think about this for a while for dd, thank god, as she's only 3.5 but I find the whole thing scary.

I was walking to school with my younger sisters and a neighbour from about 10yo I think. And we were allowed to play in the local park (10 mins walk away) alone. And go to the Downs, which was about 15 minutes away. We made dens in the woods and it was all very exciting. I'm trying to think how old I was, probably 11,12? Somethnig like that. There wasa whole gang of us who would go off in the summer. No mobile phones or anything.

btw Marina sorry you feel that way about Tom x

Thanks www I'm not sure how to get over it tbh

Totally agree that even very young children need to be given a little freedom to learn to take responsibility and assess risk. The modern way seems to be to wrap your children up in cotton wool and not let them out of your sight until they are about 14. As soon as they are allowed off the leash they go out drinking in public parks. You wouldn't believe the number of 13 & 14 year olds (usually girls) who end up in A&E having their stomachs pumped.

We owe it to our children to give them more freedom and with it the skills to manage difiicult situations.

I've always felt that these days, the first couple of years at secondary school are when our children are most at risk. Suddenly they are thrown into the deepend of crossing roads, going to school on the bus, being home alone for short periods. Often this happens in a short space of time instead of having a long, gradual learning process.

The media has given us this view that society isn't safe anymore. I've experienced a small part of this only this week. The papers have reported that a man living in the next street from me is in court for sex offences with young girls. Last week I was happy for her to walk to her friend's alone. This week I'm very nervous about it. In reality it's no more dangerous today than it was yesterday.....in my head she's about to be snatched from under my nose

There are no simple answers to this, but yes, children certainly need freedom to be allowed to develop in an emotionally healthy way. To try to eliminate every single risk from your child's life results in no life at all I believe. I'm glad this thread has been started - i actually couldn't bring myself to post on the 'in the news' ones as there was so much there that was frankly offensive. Of course we all try to keep a balanced approach, not allowing our children freedoms they can't cope with, and being as vigilant as possible, but there comes a point where you have to accept that everything in life carries some kimd of risk, no matter how small.
I also agree about the campsite thing, and how the chance to have some independence was their best bit of the holiday. Some of my best childhood memories are of the things I got up to with my friends, or walking home alone from school - situations where my parents weren't around. Who are we to deny our children the chance to have memories like these?

Saggarmakersbottomknocker - SO true! One of ds2's friends was hit by a car during his 1st week at secondary school - never been out on his own before. I like to think that mine would look out for themselves & their friends, having been allowed a little more freedom (in a very regulated, 40+ sort of way!)
ps - fortunately the boy's worst injury was a broken finger, but it shocked everyone, especially ds2, who came upon the scene a minute later and saw his pal lying motionless in the road and then being taken away in an ambulance.

SMBK - i entirely agree - they need both elements the freedom/responsibility but the skills to handle it and to make informed decisions.

all parents (as are kids) are different else we would all be made on a production line - there is no definitive right or wrong when it comes to the little grey area decisions we make daily - lo is asleep i'll pop next door, ds is 7 and wants to play football at the park but i cant directly see him (only entrance) we cant wrap our babies in cotton wool and i would hate to

i grew up with a girl who was pampered and spoilt but was not allowed freedom or ever given chance to make a decision, she was pulled out of sex ed and drug awareness as her parents didnt want her exposed to such information. she ended up pregnant at 14 and whisked away for a quick abotrion which i was sure she had no idea about (she was so spoilt and sure of herself she wouldnt even listen to friends about sex etc..) she got into ecstasy at 16 and while high was killed running out in the road.

her parents were lovely people who thought the world of their little girl.

parenting is the hardest job in the world as it has no job description or union for when things go wrong!!!

Marina: I didn't know you'd lost a child, I'm so sorry to hear that

mb: I'm so glad you started this thread. Ds1 tends to play outside our house with friends in the street, he's just turned 6 - I keep an eye, but not out on permanent supervision (unless ds2 is out as well). I think it's good for him, and given him a huge confidence boost, but it took me a very long while to feel confident about it even knowing in my brain that it was the right thing to do (our road is very safe, and the kids play in a shared drive at the end of a very quiet cul-de-sac and pretty much every house in the "square" looks out for all the kids). This thread has given me loads to think about.

WHOMOVEDMYCHOC - said earlier she has built log cabin in her garden so her children are safer but allowed freedom but this reminds me of the case where the children were in a tent and abducted no where is safe if someone wants a child desperately it seems
many times my kids have been out playing and no one has seen them for a while my heart is in my mouth till i find they are playing happily with friends but forgot to tell me they moved from one group to another
people think i am mad for giving my kids mobiles 7 & 9 but at least i can now text them or phone them

I try to give my boys as much freedom as possible.

I do find myself struggling with this, because both DH and myself work within the CJS, (my own role, whilst admin, is alongside high-risk offenders).

It is also important to equip children to look after themselves when giving them the freedom (as far as is possible without scaring the living daylights out of them).

It also depends on the children too. DS1 (12) is allowed a fair bit of freedom, and always has been, but then he is quite mature for his age).

DS2 is not allowed the same amount of freedom (for the comparative age iykwim) as DS1 was because he is far more immature.

Now, I'm in a quandary in that I think we could be making the situation worse because we're not giving him the responsibility of freedom because of his lack of maturity.

My own kids are now in their late teens so I've been through the process of shifting the boundaries, largely successfully (but not without the odd bump and scare along the way).

What I'd offer is that you know your children better than anyone so it's up to you to make decisions about what's appropriate and when, and what preparation they need. Your kids are at greater risk from traffic than just about anything else, so it makes sense to teach them good road safety awareness!

I slowly stretched the boundaries for mine - you can go as far as the garden gate, then as far as the friend's house a few doors away, then as far as round the block (none of this including crossing roads), then as far as the corner shop, the local park... and so on. My two were close in age and mainly stuck together until secondary school and I felt there was safety in numbers. We also had a 'naughty person' drill which involved making as much fuss and attracting as much attention as possible if they felt that they were approached in any inappropriate way.

I do think there are environmental factors too, we went from living in a cul-de-sac on a fairly quiet housing estate where the local park was literally over the road and within sight of the house and, as long as they stayed together and within sight, the kids had a fair bit of freedom. We moved to a more urban area (aged around 12 and 11) and I pulled the boundaries back in until we learned more about the area and what the kids would have to deal with, could cope with, and be trusted with too!

I was probably generally more relaxed with my second child than the first, although I agree with the poster that said to pay attention to behavioural maturity on an individual basis, and neither under estimate, nor over estimate what your child can sensibly manage.

We did lots of camping too, including in pretty large groups on very large sites, and my kids benefitted from the freedom both of having a 'free rein' and of wide open spaces, hugely. My kids also did camping holidays without me from quite an early age (6 & 7) which helped them learn about independence, for sure!

There's another aspect to all this which is about parental outlook and the extent to which you, as a parent, consider the (wider) environment you live in to be 'risky'. There's no convincing evidence to suggest we live in an environment that is significantly 'riskier' now than it was when we were children ourselves, and yet there appears to be much greater anxiety about it.

I totally agree MB, haven't read all the comments but, I don't think our children are in greater danger nowadays, it's just we live with a 24 hr media now, which makes us more aware of the perceived dangers. It is still true that crossing the road is far riskier for children than 'stranger danger' and that children are more at risk from abuse with people in their families. If we're not careful, we could end up with a generation of children who don't know how to perceive a dangerous situation for themselves.