Nearly 4 year old upset as just learned meat comes from animals

[epuclake]

Argh! The older he gets the more I feel ill equipped to answer his questions and concerns, and find it hard to judge the right level of response. Fine when it was just, 'where does the poo go when we flush the toilet?'

He saw duck getting cooked on TV this morning. Asks about it. I explain that, yes, duck is actually duck. He got upset and said he didn't want animals getting cut. I tried to explain that this is where meat comes from and we look after the animals and they don't get hurt. He doesn't want to eat meat he says, if it comes from cut animals. There was no satisfactory resolution to the conversation and it feels a bit brushed under the carpet. He loves meat! Do we just pretend it never came up unless he raises it again? He's going to demand a ham sandwich for lunch and I had chicken risotto planned for tea!

Or, you could say it's a non-essential part of his diet, and you're really happy he doesn't want to hurt animals!

BrownTurkey, meat is not good for us, let alone an important part of our diet.
Plenty of research supporting this now.
nutritionfacts.org/
www.pcrm.org/
www.forksoverknives.com/the-film/#gs.kKhp3xU
www.whatthehealthfilm.com/

(OP, I hope these links help you too.)

I didn't share an opinion, just a suggested approach ☺️ because the OP did not say her or her family are vegetarian and I don't think it is helpful or realistic for child development to place such choices on the shoulders of the child.

Well, it doesn't hurt them when they are cut up by chefs, because they are dead.

Whether they have a nice life or it hurts them to be killed for meat is a different question, surely.

I would support a child who wanted to be vegetarian no matter the age. Just keep answering his questions honestly, if it means he doesn't want to eat meat, that's fair enough really.

I think I might take it a little further actually and explain that some people don't eat meat because they don't think it's fair to eat animals, and that if he feels that way it's okay with you.

We have been very open with DS (3.9) about sausages coming from pigs etc. From probably when he was too young to understand. We have told him the animal dies and we eat it. He doesn’t seem phased yet but isn’t a great meat eater anyway.

If I were in your shoes I would keep an open and honest dialogue about it as and when it organically crops up. If he asks for meat then give it to him, if he refuses on the basis it’s an animal he doesn’t want to eat then that’s fine too.

So when we had the original conversation, I did explain it was ok if he didn't want to eat meat and that lots of people don't, some people are vegetarian, but that we get protein from meat and we need to eat lots of other foods instead. But the discussion didn't really go further than him saying he doesn't want animals to be cut. And he was upset and I didn't want to push it by going over things in detail, so it was left at that.

We had our meals as planned and it hasn't come up since. I will wait for him to raise it again but maybe look for natural opportunities to open up the conversation for him.

I'm really surprised actually, I expected that this would be a common phase, and that you'd all say to just ignore, he'll probably change his mind, etc. Didn't think I would have to contemplate him actually becoming vegetarian at his young age.

In terms of meat eating in general, I do think meat is a natural part of our diet. Until modern times many wouldn't have survived without it, my grandparents for sure. There are many vegetarians and vegans amongst my family and friends, most will still eat meat if it's been caught/hunted themselves or died a natural death. It's mass production of meat that they can't tolerate, and that's what grates my conscience too.

But we are in modern times, so what happened in the olden days is not relevant. These days, we do not need to eat meat to survive, and if you please watch the documentaries I posted earlier, and read the links, you'll understand meat is actually more harmful than beneficial.

I think we are moving towards a more veg*n world - the kids will lead the way, as long as we are open to hearing them, and letting their natural kindness through. Let's not sugarcoat the truth of what happens to animals. He sounds like a great, compassionate kid - well done.

Your vegetarian friends are not vegetarian if they even occasionally eat caught/hunted meat. They are just people who don't eat much meat. Definitions are important.

Most children have the same reaction when they make the connection between meat and animals. Most children love animals and do not want to see them hurt or take part in hurting them. I don't think it's morally sound to lie to children about where their food is coming from or try to brainwash them with 'the animals don't get hurt' or 'we eat beef not cows' etc. I think it says a lot about human nature when you see children having this natural in built revulsion to killing and eating animals, but their parents and society keep pushing it and normalising it so they turn into adults who do the same to their children.

I remember going through exactly the same thing as a kid and all the little lies the adults used to say to get me to eat it, or just outright refusing to answer my questions about what it was I was eating. As I got older I started refusing more and then when I was a teenager I turned vegan and never looked back. Funnily enough, my mum couldn't eat meat at all when she was pregnant with me, she now says she should of just respected that I was always anti meat rather than keep pushing it! I do feel a little resentful that I was made to eat something I wasn't happy about and lied to about it but I also accept this was just normal in our culture and they were only doing what their parents would have done and thought was best. These same family members now come to me for vegan recipes and love my cooking and say how they are trying to eat less meat these days and ask for advice on substitutions.
I say listen to the children.

Reminds me of this beautiful video of a 3 yr old with similar reflections:

m.youtube.com/watch?
v=tQIMJ648qgg

Wouldn't it be such a sad thing to dampen down children's natural compassion? I'm not saying you've done this op, but just thinking of how proud I'd feel to hear my now two year old expressing these thoughts.

I have the opposite issue to you, that both DH and I are veggie and I'd be appalled inside if DD wanted to eat meat, but also feel I want to respect her choices. Im just not sure what age I think she will be able to make an informed choice. Guess time will tell.

We are all just muddling through with unexpected questions aren't we and it sounds like you've been responsive to your little one, and your own conscience, well done.

Oops link went wrong m.youtube.com/watch?v=tQIMJ648qgg

I had a similar conversation with my 3 year old. He gave up meat on the spot (though he loved it) and a year in, confidently tells people that he is vegetarian because he does not like animals being killed for food. DH and I still eat (high welfare) meat but we have supported DS in his choice. I think it's important to be honest in an age appropriate way and if the child has strong views about it, let them make their own choice. DS being vegetarian has made us all more conscious of eating well, and DS has a better understanding of the food groups than he otherwise would have, so there were unexpected benefits though I won't deny it's been a pain when eating out as vegetarian options are more limited and often too spicy for his taste, and at the end of the day these are still 3/4 year olds who reserve the right to be fussy!

Just coming back to the thread to give an update and see the further responses. Rockafeller, thank you, and I will look more closely at the info you've linked to. I think I got a bit muddled in my last post and didn't really complete my thoughts...yes, we live in modern times, and we don't need to eat meat anymore, I agree. I watched that Simon Amstell mockumentary on veganism last year, I forget the name, but it was really eye opening actually, and despite being a spoof, I could see it playing out - a future where we look back and are disgusted at the thought we ever ate meat/milk products. So, I think we're in a transition to a more plant based diet.

Some of my friends who eat a vegan diet are a bit 'alternative', and would, for example, eat a deer that had been killed on the road, or a rabbit that the dogs had caught. Their views are based on not wasting what the earth provides, I guess, so maybe there's another name for that. I can relate to that viewpoint.

Also wanted to clarify my original post. I wasn't looking for suggestions on how to convince my son to eat meat, far from it, I was just annoyed with how I'd handled his concerns, and wasn't sure whether I should bring it up again with him/carry on as we were and wait for him to bring it up/immediately remove meat from his diet. I never intended to be dishonest with him, but think I deliberately blurred the conversation to avoid a tricky subject.

Anyway, this is long, sorry. An update. It played on my mind for days, and had decided what I would do is incorporate more vegetarian food in our diets in anticipation. He has since brought it up again himself, it had obviously been on his mind, and I was very clear and honest with him, and he was very clear with me he doesn't want to eat meat or fish. He hasn't for three days now. I'm now panicking a bit trying to think of quick, easy vegetarian meals that he will eat! I have a young baby too so it can be tricky getting dinner at the best of times. If anyone's still reading, any recommendations for vegetarian child friendly cookbooks that could help?

Thanks for the update OP, and don't worry, I think it was clear that you just want to support your son in an honest way but felt a bit caught off guard by this conversation popping up! Aww I feel very proud of your wee guy. I have this book www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B01KKC8QW6/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?ref=plSrch&keywords=vegetarian+kids+cookbook&dpPl=1&dpID=618%2BzADpTsL&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1520798255&sr=8-5

And it is fine, have gotten a few good recipes, but I've made more from the river cottage kids one which is not all veggie but includes lots of veggie options and ideas of how to make meals suit babies as well as older kids. www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1408896001/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ref=plSrch&keywords=river+cottage+baby+and+toddler&dpPl=1&dpID=51pdGHkVMlL&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1520798378&sr=8-1

One of my daughters fave meals that we eat regularly is a lentil cottage pie - simmer brown lentils with chopped carrot lentil, mushroom, swede etc, stock and a big spoon of marmite, with some bistro granules which are usually veggie. Top with mash and grated cheese. Bolognese made with quorn and/or red lentils is also always a winner. I try to make sure she has eggs regularly in some form and nut butters, humous etc for some protein. She's been on the 90th centile since birth so is defo healthy enough. Sorry long post too. Good luck!

Seems as though you have a very clever, thoughtful and empathetic little boy, OP. :)

That's a wee man who knows his own mind! Well done him. It's fine, honestly. We're a year in and have survived, even with a committed carnivore DH to feed as well.

This book might be good, as you have a younger one as well: www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01NCDUK81/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforum-21. I bought myself a second hand copy last summer on the basis that you can't go wrong for 1p plus postage. We also like the River Cottage Veg Every Day book.

I found the toughest part was the sense of regression to the bad days of early weaning, when you spend hours slaving in the kitchen only to have it rejected and thrown on the floor... Trying new things is hit and miss, and especially hard on 3 year olds who reserve the right to be fussy 3 year olds even when they've just given up meat. And therefore hard on you too. We have a deal that he has to try every new thing twice - two mouthfuls, then no fussing at him to eat any more while I practice my "don't care, not bothered" face and chalk another recipe up to experience :-)

Veggie dishes for adults can be what DS calls "too spicy" or "too vegetarian" for small palates. Tricky when eating out. He usually ends up with plain pizza or pasta and tomato sauce but it's unfairly boring.

Our go to easy meals are variations on home made veg Bolognese sauce (quorn or lentils), with rice, pasta or made into cottage pie - I freeze lots of individual portions. For ready made ease after work and his dose of "normal" he likes Linda McCartney sausages and Fry's chicken-style nuggets - we tried many brands, these were the winners. Hummus, nut butters, egg or cheese are his staples for sandwiches or with dippers.

Also sweet potato and carrot stew made with tinned tomatoes and some peanut butter stirred into the juice. You can add quorn chunks if you eat quorn, and extra veg if you like.

I like the moosewood cafe website for recipes.

My dc all like: dahl with yellow split peas
chickpea curry with tomato, garlic and chilli
tacos (quorn alternative to eg mince or chicken pieces)
sweetcorn fritters
lasagne
shepherds pie
they are addicted to vegetable fingers from farmfoods