Hellish bedtime (2 year old and 5 week old)

[m33r]

I'm just looking for some reassurance and / or advice. I have 2 DS - 2.5 and 5 weeks and bedtime is awful!

DS1 I know what the problem is and that we created it ourselves but he needs my husband or I to sit in with him until he falls asleep. Recently this is is taking an hour (the whole bedtime routine takes 2 hours!) and he is getting really grumpy and tantruming.

I know he had a new little brother and I know we need to break the sitting in with him til he nods off habit bit should we making these changes now or giving him a little longer to get used to new DS?

His routine is: 7 upstairs, pjs on, sit on our bed with DH and watch cartoons with a bottle (I know!!) of milk and supper if he wants it. Teeth brushed (usually a farce!). Through to bedroom, story, songs and then lie in bed beside him til he goes to sleep.

I know this is ridiculous so advice on what aspects to drop first are appreciated. As you can probably tell, we don't want to cry it out and try not to sweat the small stuff (allowing him to still have a bottle!) but that is prob why we're in this mess.

Meanwhile DS 2 who I appreciate is a tiny baby, cries constantly from 7.30/8 - 10. He is on meds for reflux, in infacol for wind, has his cot raised and is pretty calm during the day (not perfect but not constant screaming). We walk with him in sling which, try to feed him (rejected), rock him, cuddle him but he just screams. Is this normal? DS1 was a HORRENDOUS sleeper (hence the really bad habits - we were so desperate to get an sleep at all!) so I don't have a frame of reference. If it is normal, how long til it stops? If it is not normal, any tips?

This is driving us mad and means that it takes two of us to do bedtime; we can't get dinner til well after 9 when DH is working and we have absolutley no time at all in the evening together.

Like I say, if DS 2 will get easier soon, we can stick with this til then then address DS1 issues but we are just so worried we are going to lose any semblance or evening for the next two years (what happened with DS1).

Sorry, realise this post is epic and appreciate those who made it to the end!

First thing that sticks out is the supper and cartoons right before bed. Both will have the opposite effect to getting sleepy.

I think first step would be to change that and do his supper and cartoons earlier and not in PJ's and downstairs.

None of these things need to be or should be associated with bedtime.

I also think you probably need to adjust mealtimes and not give DS aged 2 a separate supper from your dinner...you should all eat together at about 6.

I know that for some people this is early but it's by far the healthiest option...eating heavy meals after 7 isn't good for anyone and toddlers do best when eating is a social event.

You can perhaps focus on "fixing" DS aged 2 first...as that will hopefully free you both up to sort the baby out in turn.

I would do dinner...all together and tell DS "We're all having supper together!" and let him participate in table setting etc. He'll enjoy that and see it as a treat but don't be dissapointed if he doesn't eat much.

That will work itself out eventually.

Then, breezily say that it's time for a bath at 7....quick, warm bath...then story with dim lights and bottle (I'm with you on not sweating that just at the moment!)

Then just leave.

He will probably kick off. You'll need to keep reassuring him or sitting beside his bed on a chair to reassure him.

Don't engage in conversation with him though...not more than "shh time for sleep now" in a calm voice.

Every night, move the chair further away from the bed.

It does take time and patience but you;ll get there.x

Thanks mrs. We eat together three nights a week when DH is not at work but on the days he works, he doesn't get in til 6.45 which is too late for little uns dinner. I'll switch to eating with DS1 for a while on these nights though. We also can't do a bath as DS1 hates them and gets very very upset but will certainly try everything else you suggest. Thanks!

Yes, the cartoons, bottle of milk and supper in bed are confusing. Even if it is your bed.

He should be having his dinner downstairs, and then milk and supper downstairs too. Regardless of when your husband comes home.

Then, upstairs for bath, and teeth brushing. Through to his room, stories, cuddles, pjs and then you leave. You may need to tell him you will be back, and then return periodically, so he can get used to being alone and self settling.

All the sleep hygiene says you need a definitive distinction between day and night, and what beds and bedrooms are for.

If your husband comes home at 6.45 he can either take him up for bath and bed at 7 or hold the baby while you do it.

If he won't have a bath, will he shower?

If not, a flannel wash with warm water? It's about trying to relax his body, as well as cleaning him.

If he hates the bath, then I agree with Wow that even a warm bowl of water and a flannel would help. It's just a regular thing which he'll begin to associate with sleeping.

Re the not being able to eat together...whatever suits your family but he definitely should eat at a table downstairs and with at least you, eating something along with him.

Cartoons should happen before his tea...and that means his brain has a chance to wind down.

Does he still nap in the day? What's his routine for those? The cartoons and supper in bed definitely need to go - it must be confusing to him and make it harder to view bed as 'for sleeping'.

Replace cartoons with spectacular bath toys, squirty things, bright coloured pouring toys, stick on letters, plastic books, dolls to wash?
Play with said toys in bath and child outside bath for a few nights until he is relaxed and does not mind getting in the water?

Maybe ask 2 yr old to 'help' bath the baby, or he and your dh could bath a 'doll' in washing up bowl while you do the real baby? 2yr old could wash doll face then wipe his own face, and possibly also wash dh face for a giggle?

Try to get the 5wk old used to bath as playful relaxing time?

Well firstly I suspect 7 is too late to be starting the whole thing. At that age we started at 6 ish. Put pyjamas on downstairs watching cbeebies. I don't necessarily think cartoons are terrible cos they need something and bloody everything is going to stimulate them at that age.

Then we brought him upstairs around 6.50 after the cbeebies bedtime story, plonked in bed with bottle of warm water (cos even when we lost the tooth brushing battle at least it was only water) had the barest light possible and read a few stories in the quietest voice possible. If they stood up, the book closed. If they lay down quietly again, the book opened again. No conversation, no chat, just droning on in a monotone. Usually only took about 10 mins of stories and they were asleep by 7.15.

But going from your bed to his bed is gonna make anyone a bit narky.

So I would suggest transferring all the atuff you do in your bed to downstairs.

Honestly ours freaked out at the bath at that age. People place a LOT of emphasis on it. We used to do it once a week at the weekends when we had time for the negotiations, and even then half the time we had to promise to leave his nappy on so he'd get in! You just do what you can and go mad with the baby wipes in between. Even then we had to do his hair separately! Over the sink, with all his clothes on, with his hands covering his eyes and absolutely no pouring of any water, and a biscuit afterwards. You pick your battles!

Also, don't underestimate their ability at that age to look at a book for a few minutes alone in bed. "Here, you look at the pictures whilst I go to the toilet". It's good training to make them more independent.

Honestly it basically sounds like it's way too stimulating. There does need to be an incentive to get into bed (storybooks) but there's no need for him to go near your room.

Also with the bottles, we started diluting them by 1oz a month. After 6 months they were just warm water and he hadn't particularly noticed. I think it's the temperature that's comforting mainly. We had some success with strawberry toothpaste (ice cream flavour! You can get it in health food places) and a battery operated toothbrush worked for a while. Primark have Paw Patrol ones in at the moment.

We found it tricky to get DD1 off the milk bot so we started diluting her milk until water was acceptable.

Thanks everyone. DS quite happily goes from our bed to his bed but i see that mixed messages are the problem and definitely see lots that needs to change. Thanks all! X

With your 5 week old, I suspect it's over tiredness. They should only be awake for 45 mins at a time at that age.

elspeth I know. That's why we try to get him down at that time and he just won't go over.

Slightly off topic. I was told not to give infacol to my reflux medicated baby. At 6 weeks you can give gripe water for wind and it is amazing.

With your 5 weeks old crying at the same time every night sounds like colic which is the hardest thing to deal with. I've said in previous posts the only things that helped DD was sitting in water and it seemed to really calm her down or white noise. You can download apps, buy a white noise machine or just put the hairdryer on slightly although that would be a hefty electric bill! I bought white noise machine from Amazon for £17 and it's the best thing I ever bought. It still comforts her now when she gets in a state for being over tired or whatever reason and she's 20 weeks. A lot of people say gripe water works for wind however it didn't seem to work with mine sadly.
With your 2 year old I can't really say anything different to what anyone else has said, they've given some good advice.

I agree with meals together but maybe on the nights your DH isn't home, could you do do supper downstairs with a cup of milk, night night to you and baby, DH goes upstairs to do bedtime with toddler whilst you cook dinner with baby in the sling (sleeping, obviously! ) Or you just have baby downstairs and DH can heat up whatever you've made for you and DS to eat!

I've got a 2.5yr old and an 8mo old. Bedtimes were hard in those early weeks, especially if I was on my own, but it did get better reasonably quickly. They were having a bath together by about 3 mo and it was quite nice!

I'd say, think how you want your routine with 2 to go. Get DS into that routine now and slot baby into it in a few months. You know the cartoons, bottle, supper in your bed have to stop at some point so may as well try to make a new routine which would work with both.

I let my 2.5year old watch cartoons downstairs whilst im preparing dinner, from around 5/5.30pm
He eats at 6pm at the dining table and i either sit with him or eat also with him.
Then either straight to bath or 30min play time (he has a bath every other day and just warm cloth clean on other days), brush teath and upstairs to his bedroom. PJs, books in bed and sleep. He does try to strech it now to the max by asking water, extra story etc. I try to give options i.e he can choose stories himself, i offer an extra one if he is laying down, agree to leave the night lamp on etc.
my husband works long hours so rarely home before 7, if he is early enough, he takes over the book reading. We eat dinner together later normally at 8ish (unless he is workng even longer then i will have eaten with DS).
On the weekends we all cook and eat together.
Im expecting DC2 in a few weeks and plan to stick to DS1 routine at first taking baby along (unless she will be sleaping). Then later from around 8/10weeks will try to start routine for baby and hope to engage DS1 to help me put baby to sleep first and then go up to his room.

I agree with what Mrs has advised, but if you dont want to just leave you can do progressive desensitisation to avoid the kicking off and crying. We used this with our DS 1 and it worked very well to teach him to drop off on his own. You basically start by sitting there till he is dead asleep for an evening as usual, and then the next night leave as he is asleep, then as he is just about to drop off, then as he is drowsy on successive nights. This approach avoided all upset, crying and us feeling horrible. White noise on the radio in his room helped drown out the noise of DD2 crying with reflux too.

We are in the same boat with a refluxy baby who has just come out of it at 4 months - we found that persevering with DH using the sling for DS 2 after a feed and infant Gaviscon really did help.

It feels bloody awful when youve got two of them at it but you are making changes and It will pass

I agree with other posters about tv and food just before bed not being good..

But your new baby is so new - i think its completely normal for a 2year old (who is just a baby themselves really) to cling more to mum and dad when everything is changing around them.

I wouldn't force major change on him right now.

Bath is such a nice way yo unwind after a day...Could new bath toys help get him more into it?

Also remember fussy evenings for babies dont last forever ! Its so hard to make sure adults get fed and stay sane during this time but it is such a fleeting time in life. It wont last and your baby will start settling in the evening soon

I hope so waterrat! Thanks everyone x