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Right, just realised that DS1 starts pre school in Oct. They prefer them to be potty trained.......

45 replies

IntergalEGGticWalrus · 02/04/2007 15:01

....But I'd rather wait until I know he's completely ready (which could be now, I've no idea)

I have one abortive attempt at PT a couple of months ago, but I got fed up of cleaning wee off them floor every 5 seconds, and eventually, DS asked for his nappy back on.

Thing is, I haven't a bloddy proverbial about what the signs are, and howbest to train him!

He's 2.4 btw

(I know I have until Oct, but I'm a worrier, you see)

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BigCremeEggs · 02/04/2007 22:26

oh another thing that i always praise my DD even if she hadnt done anything on the potty or toilet but at least she is getting the idea

BigCremeEggs · 02/04/2007 22:26

oh another thing that i always praise my DD even if she hadnt done anything on the potty or toilet but at least she is getting the idea

mamatres · 02/04/2007 22:39

god dont worry about it, he's still really little. ds2 started preschool when he was just 3 last year and went a whole year in pull ups. they had set times they would change him (unless he did a poo obviously) and they would do it discreetly in the kids' toilets, standing up. he eventually potty trained himself this jan on new yrs day just before his 4th birthday. he has special needs, but it wasnt known at the start of him going to preschool. your ds will not be the only one. and if he is, then so what?! they will just have to deal with it. and you know what? its a long way off and he might just surprise you one day and just do it. ds2 amazed me- never was there a child less likely to wee on the loo! then bam one day something just clicked and he's been dry day and night ever since.

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hunkermunker · 02/04/2007 22:42

not true they're not allowed to touch the child to change them

hunkermunker · 02/04/2007 22:44

isn't preschool just 2.5 hour sessions? i don't change either ds more often than that unless they poo.

twoisenoughmum · 02/04/2007 22:44

I think this has been the subject of another thread but am confused now:

Isn't "pre-school" a nursery attached to a primary school where children start in the term after their 3rd birthday? Ie. when they're "rising" 4 - hate that term). And usually go for half a school day. In my son's case, just 2 and a half hours?

(In which case I'd quietly think to myself that expecting the children to be toilet trained is reasonable).

Anything else is "nursery" isn't it?

"Day care" is where children go all day to be looked after while parents work?

Am not being pedantic. Genuinely would like to know.

Clayhead · 02/04/2007 22:46

but it is true that you can insist a parent or carer comes in to change a child.

mamatres · 02/04/2007 22:48

dunno hunker, at ds's preschool they can stay for morning and afternoon session with paying extra for luchclub- so 8.50 am til 2.50pm. which is good. obviously

Clayhead · 02/04/2007 22:48

Our pre-school is registered to offer day care, from 9:00 - 3:30 (as opposed to sessional care).

Some children also use the Out of School Club so do from 7:45 to 18:00by adding breakfast club, lunch session or tea club to their pre-school sessions.

The pre-school sessions are from 9:00 - 11:30 and 13:00 - 15:30.

Any clearer?!?!

JodieG1 · 02/04/2007 22:50

Two - no pre-school isn't always attached to a school. My is 3.5 and not potty trained yet, he isn't ready so whether or not anyone "expects" him to be isn't relevant, he simply isn't ready and I respect that I will not be rushing him.

Term after 3rd birthday imo isn't rising 4, it's just over 3.

His pre-school is 2 and a half hour sessions and he just started a few weeks ago.

JodieG1 · 02/04/2007 22:52

Should read my ds1 is 3.5

hunkermunker · 02/04/2007 22:59

Preschool round here is 2.5 hour sessions in church halls or community centres or similar.

Nursery school is attached to school.

Nursery is where children go for 8-6ish days while their parents work.

I think preschool is what was called playgroup when I was little.

twoisenoughmum · 02/04/2007 23:00

Should have added that my understanding of pre-school also includes the fact that it is non fee-paying.

Much clearer - I guess it differs by where you are in the country Clayhead - and about what's on offer in your pre-school.

hunkermunker · 02/04/2007 23:08

Non fee-paying?

I pay a fiver a session and DS1 will get his sessions paid for in September - up to five 2.5-hour sessions a week.

colditz · 03/04/2007 08:46

Article: senco-forum Early Years - incontinence the DDA and Child protection

This is a problem I came up against some years ago, before the new
Disability Discrimination legislation came into force. At that time
there was little that could be done about blatant discrimination such
as you have described. Indeed I was not even allowed to remain on
school premises (or even wait in my car parked outside the school)
ready to change nappies when this became necessary.

Fortunately the law has now changed substantially in favour of parents
whose children are slow in becoming potty trained or are incontinent
for medical reasons.

First, it's common practice for private nurseries (not attached to
schools) to employ qualified nursery nurses -- whose training and
subsequent duties include the changing of nappies. Furthermore, once a
child reaches four years of age these same private nurseries are
eligible for financial recompense from the government for providing
pre-school provision to these children.

Unfortunately school based nursery facilities are more often staffed
by less well qualified leaders supported by parent volunteers which
helps keep the cost far below that of most private nursery facilities.
However this does not exempt them from the disability discrimination
act. Far from it. For as I understand the law, they are still legally
obliged to comply with the law.

After all, their excuse that changing nappies is costly of
'unpleasant' has no more legitimacy than a school which tries to claim
serving the needs with children who have SEN is both costly and
disruptive to the education of other children.

The bottom line (pardon the pun) is that changing nappies is a
necessary skill. All nursery staff and preferably all volunteers as
well require training in this skill. Furthermore at least one member
of staff (or a trained volunteer) should be available for changing
nappies in the event this become necessary. Note this should not
usually be left to a single qualified (non volunteer) play-group
leader, as this person needs to be kept free to oversee and manage the
group as a whole.

I don't know whether this has been tested in court or at a tribunal
(SENDIST) as yet -- I will try to find out. One reason this might not
have happened to date is that by the time this reaches a court or
tribunal the child has already moved on.

As for the issue of 'child protection', this is basically a red
herring put out by those who don't want to have to undertake this
unpleasant extra duty. A simple training course plus basic child
protection procedures (for example two adults should be present when a
child is changed by anyone other than that child's parent) would
easily suffice to get around this objection. Such objections are
simply a crude smoke screen for those whose real motivation is
upholding the NIMBY (not in my back yard) principal.

Failing to provide such facilities when needed -- say when a normally
continent child has an 'accident' -- is just as much a child
protection issue. Indeed, I've witnessed children who needed changing
early in a session simply being ignored for several hours. I've even
known parents who collected their children and found them crying in
pain from severe nappy rash. Now as far as I am concerned such
unnecessary discomfort borders on cruelty and is a far more valid
real world child protection issue.

A related issue is that many nursery facilities don't even provide an
adequately equipped nappy-changing area -- at least this was still the
case the last time I enquired. This is an issue that many schools
(with nurseries attached) have not even begun to address, as standard
toilet facilities designed for junior school children are simply not
adequate.
*This should be addressed within all schools' statutory
*disability planning obligations and policy documentation.

I recall at one school the only place I was able to change my child
was inside my car ...furthermore the head-teacher even went as far as
to inform me I was 'not allowed' to park on the public road outside
the school, as she wanted this space reserved for the parking of her
staff's cars only!

Perhaps the lead needs to come from LEAs who should be oblige to offer
all nursery facilities (and infant / school facilities where the need
arises) LEA funded and/or provided training, open to both staff and
volunteers at all nursery and other facilities where 'staffed nappy
changing' provision has by implication become a statutory requirement
under the newly introduced disability legislation.

Yes of course volunteer parents may object to their being required to
change the nappies of other people's children. But this can be gotten
around by giving them the choice of either paying substantially more
in fees for having a qualified (expensive) nursery nurse on hand, or
paying a lesser fee if they are prepared to receive training and
provide this service themselves to all children on a voluntary basis.

This way the onus will be moved away from the past common but never he
less highly discriminatory practice of insisting a child's own parents
must remain or hand to change nappies, or else they will be excluded.
If parents and staff refuse or object, then the alternatively is for
all parents to be charged a compulsory financial levy that covers fees
and the cost of taxi transport both to and from the nearest
alternative facility prepared to take the excluded child -- one where
nappy changing is included within this facilities standard service.
Either this or parents must pay for a qualified nursery-nurse to be
present at all times. The final alternative is for the discriminating
facility to be closed down.

One final note: As a working parent whose child was denied access to
local nursery facilities simply because he happened to remain
inconsonant for a little longer than is usual for most children, I can
tell you from first hand experience this was extremely upsetting for
both myself and my child. What made it far worse was lack of sympathy
and even the contempt shown to me by staff and other parents whose
attitude not only discriminatory but even gloating on occasion --
implying their own 'potty trained' children were somehow superior to
mine. Indeed some even strongly objected to my changing my own child's
smelly nappies on the floor inside the nursery facility -- after which
I was excluded. None expressed the alternate view the play-group ought
to provide basic changing facilities, or at the very least a changing
mat for use by parents.

David Bowles
TeacherLab / Education Support
db at educatiomnsupport.fsnet.co.uk

PS: You are welcome to pass on this post (including my name and email
address) to the NSPCC, other lists, LEAs and anyone else you feel
could use what I have written as leverage that will help ensure ensure
adequate staffed changing facilities become a standard requirement
within all nursery facilities and for all children of any age who
suffer incontinence for medical reasons and need adult support to help
them cope with this.

CPed from a senco forum

mish2 · 03/04/2007 11:01

ahh the pre school in a paid nursery my dd went to didnt care either way and looked after dds botty as well as i did it was the preschool nursery attached to a school which is a 2 and half hr session were i was told had to be toilet trained. I wouldnt rush it either way as its best dealt with in a calm relaxed manner and the summers just fab for chilled out days with bums out!

Overrun · 03/04/2007 16:08

This is a really pertinent thread for me. My dts are due to start at a private nursery/pre school for 3 afternoon sessions of 2 hours on the 24th of April. Its not attatched to a school btw
Their policy about taking children who are not toilet trained is a bit confusing. In their literature they say a catergorical NO. I do know of some parents who have managed to persuade them to take their dcs in pull up pants, if they come back to change pooey nappies. I would be willing to do that.
I tried with them a few weeks a go, and they were clearly not ready. I have tried again today, and will persist for a few days, but really think they are not ready .
I am really keen for them to start, as I think emotionally they are ready, and I could do with being able to do other things. But wouldn't want to upset them by forcing the issue.
Any tips?

IntergalEGGticWalrus · 03/04/2007 16:14

So, what do I need to look out for in terms of readiness signs? DS twells me he need a poo and somtimes when he is weeing,

oh god, I'm too bloody lazy to potty train

OP posts:
Overrun · 03/04/2007 16:37

MIne don't tell me, thats a bad sign isn't it? ,

Loopymumsy · 03/04/2007 16:52

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