How to discipline child who doesn't care about consequences?

[Fluffywhitepompoms]

Feel like I have no control over my 5 year old. He's always been challenging, but I'm finding him harder to handle the older he gets, and he's only 5! He is massively defiant and stubborn. He's very intense and would like attention 100% of the time. He never leaves his little brother alone (age 3), will never play separately and is mean to him about 80% of the time. I feel like I'm fairly strict with him, but he genuinely isn't bothered by consequences. I did a Webster Stratton Incredible Years course nearly 2 years ago to help me manage his behaviour, and I still use a lot of the techniques from that which help, such as 'when/then' and using natural consequences. They work to an extent for getting him to do things such as tidying up, getting dressed, eating etc. But I struggle when it comes to stopping him doing his most annoying things, like the INCESSANT winding his brother up. I run out of things to use to get him to stop...I try counting to 3, and if he doesn't stop I'll take a particular toy off him, but he really doesn't care once it has gone and just carries on. I try rewards to get him to behave...if he does such and such for so long he earns something, but I get fed up of all the games I have to play just for him to behave or do normal things. One of the biggest problems at the moment is he gets up too early and goes straight to his brothers room and wakes him up. DS2 only recently stopped having afternoon naps and is really suffering from the extra loss of sleep, as left alone in the morning would easily have another hour or more. He has been told dozens and dozens of times absolutely not to wake his brother up, but completely ignores it. He sometimes comes in to us first, and is told he either goes back to bed or can quietly play in his room until the sun comes yesterday on his clock at 7am, but ignores that and wakes his brother up. At 5.45am this morning we had the usual discussion, and I said I would take all his Lego away if he went into DS2's room. Sure enough, 2 mins later I find him in there climbing on the bed on top of bleary eyed brother. I took all his Lego as threatened, but he just shrugged and said he didn't care. Without resorting to smacking him (which is bloody tempting sometimes but I don't), what else can I do???

Read The highly sensitive child by Elaine Aron

If he is one, helping him to empathise with others AND being empathic to his needs while still having boundaries might work better.

Timeout and punishments didn't work with my sensitive one. Getting him on side, holding him in positive regard, being empathic to him and helping him be empathic to others, giving him lots of special 1:1, asking him him how to resolve issues and working out action plans together. It gets easier once you've found a formula that works

Would he watch tv or go on a computer while his brother's asleep to keep him quiet? It sounds like he'd find playing quietly on his own in his room challenging

Maybe try putting him to bed slightly later too

Every time he hurts or winds up his borther, I would put him in his room to calm down. I suspect he'll spend a lot of time in his room (come out and do something to go straight back in again), and possibly trash it. But it's really, really important that his brother feels safe and happy and protected at home, so I think you need to go zero tolerance on this.

As for the early mornings, it sounds like he's desperate for attention and I'm wondering if you could break the cycle by saying he can come to you and have cuddles / screen time only if he hasn't woken his brother up. So link the thing he seems to want (your attention) to doing what you want.

I've got a highly sensitive child - it's very wearing but if you can teach the basics of self control at this age you'll have a lot less trouble later. Having a 'I'm cross / overwhelmed / wanting to hit someone' moment and knowing to go to their room to calm down, and not hurt anyone, is important.

I'd remove him too and put him in his bedroom when he's winding brother up. I know it's not ideal for you but when she wakes up could you get up with him not really play at that time but have a snuggle and watch kids Tv? He sounds like he might enjoy the 1:1 time?

Oh, yes, learning to read was a major breakthrough here, as well. Something about needing company all the time, but being able to get it from a book. Luckily she was also an early reader...

Sorry but you need to get up with him at 5:45 ( or take turns if you have a DP) of course he is going to wake his brother up, got you out of bed, didn't it ?

I am with @Stillwishihadabs to be honest. You should be heading him off before he gets there and taking him downstairs. I know it's early but that could be your quiet one to one time :)

What got me through the 5.30am starts was having DD on my lap at the computer. I split the screen so she had CBeebies and I had Mumsnet or the newspaper but we were having a cuddle at the same time.

Thanks for the replies everyone, really busy today so will have a proper read through and reply tonight

I agree that it's a bit unrealistic to expect a 5yo to play quietly on his own for an hour and a quarter! If you don't want him to wake his brother, I think you need to either get up with him yourself or let him watch TV or something.

All is peaceful in the house and I can think properly! DH and I have had a chat about everything and agree that to a large extent it comes down to us changing/managing our expectations rather than changing his behaviour (especially with the early mornings). I'm just sooooo tired all of the time (which is not completely his fault, I know). He's never been a good sleeper...I bf for a long time and used to feed him to sleep and if he woke in the night. From being pregnant with DS2 he had to adjust to being settled by DH, and has continued over the years to wake a few times in the night for various reasons, although this has improved to just a few nights a week waking once or twice (wanting to be tucked in, fan turned up/down/off/on, radio adjusted). DH works long hours (pretty much 2 jobs) and works away regularly, and I work part time but do 12 hour shifts. DS had slept until about 7am for nearly 12 months until a few months ago, so I'm still stupidly living in hope that he will return to that pattern. I accept that I just need to suck up his early wake ups with better grace and get the kettle on! I'm up at 6am the days I work, and always feel wide awake and raring to go by the time I've showered and dressed etc. I'm going to trial setting my alarm for 5.45/6 and getting up and ready so I can greet DS with a smile rather than being grumpy that he's up too early

So....that's the early mornings. Hopefully that will have an impact on the other issues I have...as someone further up the thread said, starting the day with something negative has definite ramifications for the rest of the day, and I struggle to snap out of it and just move on. I might also try setting something up for him to do the night before, he LOVED it when we went through a phase of regularly setting up a play scene with some of his toys, or made a building site in a tuff tray or something like that.
I will also order that sensitive child book that someone has suggested...thank you.