Niece and inappropriate (?) behaviour?

[TheLongRains]

We are on holiday with my sister and her family, and yesterday her daughter (5) and my daughter (2) had disappeared for a few minutes from the lounge so I went to check where they were. They had gone into my niece's room and she had shut the door (my daughter is a small, only just turned two, so can't shut or open doors yet!) and I found them with my daughter standing in the middle of the room and my niece pulling my daughter's pants/trousers round her knees.

At first she said "her trousers and pants fell down so I was just pulling them up", then I said to my daughter "oh dear, did your pants fall down?" And she said "no, (cousin's name) changing my nappy". To which my niece said "oh yeah, yeah, I was just changing her nappy".

I pointed out to both kids that my daughter doesn't wear a nappy (!), so probably it doesn't need changing so could they both go back and play in the lounge.

I mentioned to my sister that I'd found them with my daughter's pants down, and I said that I'd had mixed stories as to why. She told her daughter that "we don't pretend to change nappies with other people", but she then said to me a couple of times over the afternoon "she was only pretending to change her nappy", despite me not saying anything about it after having mentioned it initially.

I don't know if I'm being over sensitive because of having worked in childcare settings in the past and being used to logging things that might seem insignificant but could build a bigger picture. It's not so much the fact that my niece was undressing my daughter that bothers me, as I know that that may well just be childish play, but my sister seeming so determined to tell me (a few times) that "she was just changing her nappy" makes me feel weirder about the situation. Like she's trying to defend her daughter, even though I hadn't expressed even the slightest anger or upset when mentioning it.

I may be totally wrong, because my 2 year old is my oldest so I'm not an experienced patent, but I think my instinct would have been to at least talk to my child about it a bit more, talk about why it's not appropriate etc.

Would any of this make you think, or am I just being over-the-top sensitive and thinking about it too much?! Willing to accept I'm reading too much into it!

I'd be very concerned.

How would you have reacted if it was a strange child not your niece?

I'd be concerned that your niece has been, or is being, abused. This is a clear red flag.

Your niece shut the door. Little kids at this age in my experience don't tend to shut the door. It sounds as if she probably knew she was doing something that adults perhaps wouldn't approve of and shut the door.

Ok, thing, which happened round my house when dd and her friend were 5 almost 6. My dd and her friend were playing babies nicely. One of the girls (sure it was my dd due to circumstance) decided to clean eachother like babies in the nether regions. I heard the bedroom door shut and at that age, it's always prudent to check when doors shut and keep an eye on little kids in general. When I walked in, dd was cleaning her friend down there whilst lying on the changing mat. Her friend was embarrassed and dd was not. (To put into context, Dd was rather immature at the time due to me being chronically ill, stopped developing emotionally because of if, all sorted now). Basically the girl had already cleaned my dd beforehand with the door open as my dd saw nothing wrong. When it was her turn, the friend knew the game wasn't ok but still wanted to participate so she shut the door. Obviously when I saw what they were doing, I asked them to stop, for her friend to get dressed, I then shut the door to give her privacy. When they emerged, I told them this wasn't an ok game to play. I had a talk with dd when she'd gone home as dd didn't understand it wasn't ok when the other little girl did.

Your sister is probably right and her dd was playing babies and maybe this has happened before. It sounds as if her dd knew it was wrong. As a mother, she should have talked to her child and maybe she did later in private (as I did with dd). Yes, I would also be concerned about possible abuse of your niece and wouldn't jump to conclusions on this one. Perhaps your sister got defensive because of your reaction, ie if you were shocked etc. I was very calm with the girls so as not to upset them or cause any trauma for as we know, as females, our own bodies are something we need to protect. Have a chat with your sister about it if you can, perhaps approaching it as asking her advice for future reference and see what she says.

Odd - perhaps she was exploring through play - I remember a close family friends little boy showed DD his bits and they were probably 4-5 years old.
Has your niece had the 'pants talk' explaining we don't show or get touched in this area?

I don't know OP, it sounds like your sister was just embarrassed and doesn't want you to think her daughter is a sex pest at 5! Maybe her daughter has done this before and it is an issue for your sister who is trying to reassure herself repeatedly it was just a game.

Around this age little kids start to get interested in private parts and these kind of games start to unfold as they explore the world.
Unless you think there are other reasons for suspecting abuse, I wouldn't read too much into it. The NSPCC pants rule thing is a good way to explain to the children if the issue comes up again.

I don't think you should be overly concerned. And sorry, but a two year old does know how to shut doors. Maybe not open them because the handle is too high. But there are plenty of cases of two year olds getting out of their houses by unlocking and opening doors.

At five years old I caught my son and his twin friends (girl/boy) in the bathroom with their pants down checking each other out. They thought it was interesting.

I think it is just a normal part of growing up at 5 years of age. It doesn't always mean malicious ideas or intent. Nor does it mean most the time a child has been abused.

If it were to continue to happen, yeah, worry. But as a one off, think no more about it.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. Yes, I do think my niece knew it was wrong, hence the closed door and the excuse of "her pants fell down so I was just pulling them up", and also the door shutting (oh, and yes, certainly my 2yo could close a door by pushing it shut, but this door opened outwards, so I'd be 99% sure it wasn't her on this occasion, as she'd have trapped her fingers in the process! And she just never really closes doors anyway, and she didn't seem to think there was anything wrong with the game, unlike my slightly flustered niece).

I think that my sister being embarrassed is probably right, as she is a bit...prudish?! My niece isn't allowed to know/use the word breasts, for example. So I've been asked (still breastfeeding) to say that my daughter drinks from my chest, if my niece is asking about it. And I was recently told off for using the word "sexes" when talking about male vs female biology (was talking to other adults, but with children in earshot), as they don't want her to hear "that word" (!).

I shall keep an eye and see if there's anything else that happens that would make me question it, but I'll assume this was just a childish curiosity/slightly knew it wasn't quite ok but no "malicious" intent one off.

I'm not so concerned for my daughter in this situation, as they're rarely together in a setting where this could happen again, but I'm more concerned about keeping an eye on my niece in case it is something else. My sister would very much rug sweep, I think, as she's so "proper" and "nice little girls" don't talk about bottoms, so if something is going on, I'm slightly concerned my niece would be told "we don't talk about those things" and it would therefore go un-investigated.

Perhaps I'm now massively blowing this one incident out of proportion though, as really it's only this one thing I've seen. I shall do what I can to keep an eye on her anyway. Thanks again for your thoughts and reassurances!

Your sister needs to get over herself. Bloody hell. You've just said she's prudish and if her dd were abused, it would be brushed under the carpet. Can't you sit her down and tell her what a tit ladies chest she's being?

I don't know, but I do know that my 5 y.o and a neighbour's 5 y.o. showed each other their private parts in a room when they were alone together - both curious. They are friends, I chatted to their mum when I found out this had happened afterwards, she wasn't currently concerned after speaking with her son and nor was I (although we both had the Pants talk with our kids). A lot depends on how it was done, I think. The age difference concerns me in your story.

Yikes. First of all, I am dumbfounded and a little creeped out that your sister won't use anatomically correct words with her daughter. Objecting over the word breasts?? What the actual fuck. Secondly, I would monitor your daughter around your niece very closely.

Oh ffs I can't believe the amount of people implying there's something sinister going on. It's not sexual! It's curiosity and playing. kids at that age are curious. I remember doing "you show me yours..." around that age. I also remember a friends little girl being fascinated with her brothers 'willy'.

I agree Leigh.

There's an article here

www.erziehungskunst.de/en/article/early-childhood/no-fear-of-playing-doctors-and-nurses-how-small-children-discover-gender/

The curiosity to explore our own body is later joined by the interest also on some occasion to see other children or even adults naked, and eventually by the well-known game of “doctors and nurses” which we frequently encounter among five-year-olds. All these things are not yet about sexual pleasure for the children but about the basic need to become familiar with the world. Why should they make an exception with regard to such elementary aspects as the human body and physical differences between the genders?

I am a child protection trained social worker and from your description i would say that your niece was displaying perfectly normal exploratory behaviour. Children are curious about bodies and this type of behaviour at this age is not sexual.

Your sister being prudish but it is her choice and isn't likely to be related to this incident.

Yes children this age like to explore. But in my experience 5 year olds don't shut doors and then lie about their behaviour!! She knows what she's done is wrong but still choose to do it. That's what rings alarm bells for me.

The young children I have and do know may sometimes mess around pulling each other's pants down or looking at pants etc but then go to the nearest adult giggling and telling all about his hilarious bit of high jinx.

I would be very concerned about your niece. I would also keep an eye on her and I wouldn't let your own DD be alone in non-communal areas with your BIL - better safe than sorry!

Of course, inappropriate sexual behaviour (not suggesting not niece is yet at that stage) is also a classic symptom of a very regressive/prudish upbringing. Poor thing might just have to hide her normal curiosity and then feel guilty about it. Either way, it's not great.

Thank you, again :) glad to hear I'm most likely overthinking it. I'd assumed probably childhood curiosity, but the closed door and changing story had me wondering if I should be more concerned.

Oh gosh, don't even get me started on my sister. She's quite extreme. I've tried several times to tackle her on it (gently and not so gently). I don't think she'd ignore abuse at all if it was obvious, but I would be concerned that if my niece started saying things about body parts, or sexual activity and it didn't immediately scream "abuse", my sister would just tell her to stop being silly...

Anyway, hopefully as several of you have said, this is just a childhood curiosity thing and I needn't think of it any more :)

I have a 6 year old and a 4 year old. Both girls and both out of nappies for years. They play changing nappies at least once a week (did it today actually before this thread). They often do it with friends too who also seem to play it. I never even thought it odd

Should also add it's always in context of playing ' mummy's and babies'

Maybe your sister is over aware of your job and was trying to stress that her daughter was playing? Totally natural behaviour and (to be frank) your reaction to a pretty normal kid plying game and your sisters refusal to say breasts is more concerning.

5yos don't shut doors and lie about their behaviour

Er okay, ime they do. Dd1? No, very honest. Dd2? Not sure. Dd3? Would lie about anything if there was a chance she'd be in trouble.

I would keep a closer eye on play in future but wouldn't be overly concerned.

It's going to be interesting when she teaches her dd about periods and sex. I'm a great believer in starting to teach this young so it all becomes unembarrassing and matter of fact. Dd (9) knows the basics of periods, words like sperm, womb and vagina and that she has 3 holes. If dd were interested in finding out how babies are actually made, I'd now tell her. However, she's told me she's not interested. I think I'd keep that to yourself as I think your sister may swoon .

And it sounds as if she told a fib because she knew what she was doing was a bit personal and didn't want to be told off.

I actually came to post something very similar when I saw this. In my case I was the younger child, if you have any concerns AT ALL don't leave them alone together and keep an eye out for your niece as much as you can, if there is any sinister intentions they have to have come from somewhere. I'm not saying by any means that this is the case but I don't think you can be too careful x

Ok, hands up, I would have made nothing of that at all.
I am however, as my DCs like pointing out, very very old.

Children do all sorts of things in imaginary play, including exploring bodies, often their own, sometimes others.
In the current hyper-aware climate of sexual abuse suspicions everywhere, I would not be comfortable to describe what kind of 'doctor' games my brother and I got up to. It was an entirely normal developmental step and stage, there was nothing sexual about it and it passed. God help any children nowadays being discovered 'examining' each other as we did

OP, only you can decide what you feel the appropriate way forward is. Only you know exactly what you walking in on.
Trust your instincts, observe your DD (and your DN), don't ask your DD anything but by alert to her telling you anything relating to this incident.
Be alert, but remember that MOST children do NOT experience abuse (although an upsettingly high number do and many cases of abuse are not known, I do know all that).

I hope all will turn out to be well and this was simply curious play.
A conversation about 'private parts' being called 'private' for a reason may be in order though.