What the hell do you do in this situation?

[Stormwhale]

When your 3 year old is behaving awfully and you have given choices and consequences and then they are throwing a mega tantrum and screaming and screaming at you until you feel your patience seriously running out after the morning from hell... all you want to do is walk away to get some space to breathe and calm yourself and they hang on to your leg and run screaming after you everywhere you go? Fucking hell.

I'm on my own with her all the time at the minute as dp is in hospital again. I know that is why her behaviour is shit, she is reacting to the situation, but that doesn't make it easier to handle.

All morning she was pushing boundaries and after repeatedly warning her that if she didn't behave herself then she would not be allowed to make cookies with me this afternoon. She continued so lost out on doing the cookies and just lost her shit. This resulted in a public tantrum that caused the entire workforce working on the roof of my building to stop and stare then once we got inside they were actually looking through the window to see what the fuck was happening.

I calmly told her what was happening (not making the cookies) and why, but she just got more and more irate. She was shoving at me, but at the same time screaming at me to cuddle her. I cuddled her, but I was seriously running out of patience and needed a minute to collect myself. She wouldn't give me even a second. I felt so angry after a bloody horrific morning and really needed to calm down so my interactions with her were helpful to the situation, but she just wouldn't let me even breathe.

What do I Do? Historically her behaviour is shit when her dad is in hospital, and it probably will continue to be this time. She is only three, she doesn't understand why her dad keeps leaving her like this and she is angry. Meanwhile I am trying to hold things together, take the brunt of her behaviour whilst being seriously worried about dp myself. Help?

((Hug)). I'm sorry your DP is so unwell & that you & DD are suffering too. It's hard. It's bloody hard.

Definitely not too early for alcohol 🍹 (unless you have to drive). Sometimes it just makes you feel more relaxed and less stressed, it's no bad thing. (Obviously don't get bladdered & don't do it every day!)

Three is old enough for you to say 'I know you are cross & sad because Daddy isn't here. I am too. But we are both here and we need to be nice to each other, being naughty/horrible just makes us both more cross & sad and I will not have that'.

It's a fine line between being understand and enabling.

As for the workmen, put them on the spot! 'Yes, it's a tantrum, small children have them, please take this (hand one of them shopping and toy buggy) so I can take this (pick up DD). This way...'

I hope your DP is getting the best possible help he can.

I would have either pushed the buggy or carried the toddler for you.

Depending on the situation I might also have either tried to cajole them out of it or given them the raised eyebrow & paddington stare. Strangers sorting it out often helps...

Drinks, snacks, hugs, screentime & treats - all the way!

When my DD used to have these mad screaming tantrums I used to put her in a room where she couldn't do any damage and leave her there for a bit.

It would usually calm us both down. I did tell her when doing it she could sit there till she was calmer.

The worse she did was throw cushions around there was nothing for her to break and she'd end up looking out of the window singing and I'd have a chance to pick myself up and calm down.

I'm sorry your DP is in hospital I hope things get better for you all soon.

And honestly most of us have been there so we would not be judging you for having a toddler throwing a tantrum. It happens to most of us.

for you.
My only snippet is can you try to avoid punishments that are a while after the event. At 3 she probably can't link her bad behaviour in the morning to not baking in the afternoon.
Also praise praise praise whenever you can.

I doubt her dad does seem fine to her before he disappears, tbh. It's a difficult situation for both of you but especially for your daughter who can't influence or rationalise it. Go easy on yourselves.

Not sure how best to phrase this but what helps me a lot of the time is to expect less-than-perfect behaviour.

So, if I'm giving DD something with the potential to be messy, I mentally prepare myself for the probability that she will make a mess with it. So when she gets paint on the table or splashes water on her dress or pares pencils over the floor, I already expect to be cleaning it up and the frustration I'd otherwise feel isn't there. If I ask her to get something, I know there's a good chance she'll pull the place apart looking for it. If I don't react negatively, she'll usually help me clear up whatever the mess is without a fuss and is more likely to listen when I tell her to pare the pencils over the bin the next time or to keep the paint on the paper.

The anger you're feeling in the situation is not because of the mess itself, but because you expected there to be no mess. If that makes sense.

My worst days with DD are when I expect things to go well and the frustration of that not happening builds and builds until I eventually snap at her.

I just wouldn't punish a three year old. I don't think they understand a punishment that's not directly linked to what they're doing.

I found this website really helpful.
www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/connection/building-relationship

OP, l am so sorry for the hard time your family is having..it sounds very sad.

But l think your d/d needs kind but firm boundaries to make her feel secure, you sound like a kind and lovely mum already, but if l were you l would write out house rules, stick them up in the kitchen, read them with her and tell her what the consequences will be if she breaks them.
Then have a reward system in place if she behaves nicely all day, ie extra story time, special outing the next day.

When she misbehaves just give one warning, then when she does it again enforce the consequence ...every time...ie sitting on the stairs for 5 minutes then saying sorry was our consequence....

The trick is to be very calm and consistant and make it clear you will no longer tolerate bad behavior.

Between clear consequences for naughty behavior and nice treats to reward good behavior she will realise it is more fun if she behaves well....good luck op and l wish your DH well

Oh bless you both. That sounds really hard and I'd have lost it long before you did!

I always comfort myself that my children behave well for others and take out their frustrations out on me. She knows you love her unconditionally. She's scared, frustrated and can't verbalise any of it properly... tough for the both of you.

I guess just make life as easy as you can. Does she sleep reliably in the evening? Shower then and take 10 minutes to sit with a glass of gin and eat chocolate. Lay out both your and her clothes for the morning, pack a bag with drinks and snacks and get fresh air every morning to burn off some steam.

Easy lunch/tea of things she likes and lots of cuddles and lean on your mum if she can help out!

I hope you're feeling a bit better now OP :)

Another tip for 3 year olds which I used to find quite magic is to always word things as a positive direction, which doesn't mean that you never tell them off, it just means that instead of telling them what not to do (don't run off, stop shouting, no hitting, leave that alone etc) you phrase it as what you do want them to do. It's not even out of some weird fear of the word no, it's just that when you tell them to stop doing something they already have some momentum which they need to carry over into SOMETHING, toddlers are simply not made to stand calmly and await their next instruction, so by giving specific instruction in what you do want, you're more likely to get a good result. Otherwise they either tend to ignore you because they can't stop themselves or instead of doing what would be logical to an adult they make some other annoying/inconvenient choice because they didn't necessarily understand that the instruction was "None of any kind of that" (Channels Bernard Black:

So don't run off becomes stand by mummy, walk on this side, or hold mummy's hand (whatever's appropriate). Be as specific as you can in as few words as possible. If the positive phrasing is too vague or unrealistic (e.g. be quiet instead of stop shouting) you can offer a redirection instead (Can you sing a song. Hit the sofa not people.)

And I think it's probably helpful to talk to her about her dad being away? DH used to work away when DS was 4 and he found that quite difficult. Maybe there are some books you can look at about a parent being in hospital. I'll come back to this because it's late but I'm sure there are techniques for helping children understand big scary things - because she likely won't be connecting a general low level stress feeling with her behaviour OR with her dad being away so it won't help to talk about it in relation to the behaviour, but having an outlet to talk about it might help her behaviour in general. We used to like this book called Danny and the Great White Bear. In the book Danny's Dad travels but he sends a big bear to look after him, it's quite sweet. I've just had one thought which is could you buy or just repurpose a pair of teddies, take one to DH in hospital and give the other one to DD in bed. Tell her that she can tell her goodnights for Daddy to the teddy bear and he'll say his goodnights to her to his teddy. Then every few days when you see him you can swap them around so that the teddies can "take the messages" to each other?

Must be so stressful for you all

With a 3 yo, consequences need to be immediate and specific: 'If you don't stop hitting Sam with your banana, I'm going to take it away".

Threatening her in the morning with no cookie baking that afternoon isn't immediate enough and it's too conceptual.

Also agree with pps that love-bombing is probably a better approach anyway while she is unsettled.

Hello. Lots of lovely and good advice here. Only thing I would add is that I find getting outside to play at the park, garden or a fun
walk (think treasure hunt along the way collecting thing like stones, leaves, flowers etc) really helpful, especially when feeling angry/frustrated/grumpy. It tires little ones out and lifts everyone's mood. Then when you get home you can stick the telly on for a bit and relax - and not feel bad about it as you all need a rest.

The other side of this is the toll it's all taking on you. You are in a stressful and emotionally exhausting situation, worrying about your DP, supporting him, supporting your DD, soaking up all her anxiety and anger at the same time as having to manage your own. I find it far harder to cope with toddler mood swings when I'm feeling emotionally used up. Make some time to look after you as well and it will benefit you both

You've said a couple of times that she's 'angry' about her dad being in hospital. Whilst she probably is, do remember that she's also very afraid. She's afraid that it's somehow her fault (small children always blame themselves) and especially very, very afraid that you will leave her too. That's why she's pushing you: to get the reassurance that you won't leave.

Have you read her any books about what's going on? That would give you a framework to talk about it, explain things, and reassure her (including reminding her of all the other people in her life who love her and are there for her) .

I had a quick search and found these about parental mental health issues. Some of these might help her to understand the wider picture of what's going on with her Dad (as a pp said, she may well need to understand any unusual behaviour from him before he went to hospital too)

list of books

my happy sad mummy

why are you so sad

Books about parents going into hospital (regardless of reason) might also be helpful.

Hope today is easier.

On a practical level, try to cut back as much as you can on things you 'have' to do until you are both on a more even keel. Be as gentle as you possibly can be on both yourself and her.

Punishments are probably counter-productive just now: she's not in an emotional place to be learning from it, and it will just make her feel less secure about your relationship. Especially avoid any punishments which are about withdrawing yourself from her, e.g. timeouts etc.

Does the hospital your DH is in offer any support to families?

Sorry I have disappeared from the thread. The afternoon was as awful as the morning, but luckily I had managed to fall asleep while she crashed out after lunch. I think she was exhausted from the emotions of the morning. The migraine was awful, but I managed with that little bit of sleep after taking the aspirin.

The afternoon carried on with the same level of tantrums and testing behaviour. She was definitely lashing out at me, but the posters who said she was trying to work out if I was leaving too hit the nail on the head. After the tenth or so screaming fit of the day we were both in tears and just sat on the floor cuddling. I told her I wasn't going anywhere and that I loved her all the time even if she was shouting at me. She just crumbled at that and sank into my lap and stayed there for ages.

The next morning she seemed much calmer, and was trying to show me she was being a good girl. I latched onto every tiny bit of good behaviour and praised her massively. It changed the atmosphere and she was more her normal self. I ignored any bad behaviour and just focused on the good.

She asked me at one point if I was cross, to which I replied that I wasn't cross at all. She then told me she was cross, and when I asked why she told me she is cross daddy is in hospital. I told her that was ok, and that I had felt cross about it too, but that daddy is being looked after and the doctors will make him better as soon as possible.

I definitely did love bombing and it felt like we were much closer to our normal relationship.

She had a sleepover at my mum's last night which had been arranged before dp went in which gave me some time to look after myself too. I visited dp and then came home and had some nice food and watched a film and I feel more rested for it.

I am so grateful for the advice I have had on this thread as I was so stuck in the middle of the situation it was hard to see how to resolve it. The posters who said that consequences need to be immediate are spot on and I can now make sure I don't repeat that mistake as it just made the whole situation worse.

I am in my own therapy so I do have some support, but unfortunately my therapist is away for the next 2 weeks. I met a lovely lady at the hospital last night whose daughter has a similar psychotic illness to dp and she has pointed me towards a support group that she attends which I am going to go to. It can feel so bloody lonely dealing with a loved one with severe mental health issues, it just feels like no-one else will understand it.

Thank you again for the support and advice regarding dd. I so don't want to get it wrong with her as this situation is hard enough on her already. I honestly have thought about separating from dp to protect her from it, but I actually don't think it will help. She would still be seeing him and she would still be hurt and upset if he didn't see her as he had gone into hospital. I think I can't really protect her from it at all and that hurts.

Gosh, this thread should be in classics! Such incredible advice from lovely mumsnetters about an obviously very common parenting challenge.

OP I hope this has helped you realise that you are not alone! You sound like the parent I strive to be (i.e. a very child centred, loving, understanding and tolerant) and I totally understand how you feel. I HATE myself when I shout but still I struggle to stop it happening after the cumulative type of morning you described .

DD isn't quite 3 but although we escaped this phase with DS, I fear the universe is giving it to me twice with her! So this thread is brilliant. BertieBotts some amazing practical tips there so I'm just going back to re-read it all!

Oh storm I hadn't read your update when I posted and I am now very emotional on your behalf - that sounds like a really important afternoon for you both. Well done. Poor little thing to be dealing with such huge feelings and what a clever girl to finally work out a way to tell you. And we'll done to you for creating the environment where she could do that.

I'm so glad to hear that you have support around you as it most be terrible trying to cope with DP's illness.

I hope today is a good one

Love bombing. For both of you. Sounds really tough, am sending hugs x

Try the book - How to talk to your child sonthey will listen and listen to your child so they will talk ....
Hope things improve soon xx

I would love bomb her when she's being ok. Even if she shrugs you off you can say "you might not need a cuddle but I do, because I love you lots"

The rest I would just ignore and give her as little attention as possible so she doesn't get a reaction. Don't respond to anything she taunts you with other than to occasionally say "we can do something nice together when you are behaving nicely and doing what mummy asks you to do". Say it in a jolly way.

Sometimes when she is just beginning to play up you could distract her by grabbing her and tickling her whilst laughingly saying "you're not supposed to be doing that" then move her on swiftly to something else.

She's also picking up on your stresses so can you look at injecting some false jollyness into your voice when distracting her or encouraging her with "help me tidy up that mess then we can do xxx"

Also talk to her about both your emotions regarding dh when you are both calm and snuggled up.
Along the lines of
"I'm feeling sad daddy isn't here. I'm really missing him at the moment. I bet you feel like that sometimes. Nevermind. We know that daddy loves us and he will be home as soon as he can be. We can manage together until then can't we? I know it's hard to wait for him to come home though isn't it?"

Sorry hadn't seen your update

Glad to hear things have improved - complicated little souls aren't they?

after repeatedly warning her that if she didn't behave herself then she would not be allowed to make cookies with me this afternoon

These are the three things I picked up on...
'repeatedly warning' at this age doesn't work. They just keep going to til the consequence kicks in...which leads to number 2 -

Consequence needs to be in the here and now (they have much experience of cause and effect through their play/toys so relate well to this) as they have little concept of time and then when that time comes they feel confused and lash out

Number 3 was withdrawing you - which in your current situation with dad being away was what she's been fearing and eventually managed to articulate to you

You are doing a great job in an incredibly difficult, stressful and emotional time - with no instructions!

Is dad's time in hospital planned? Maybe you could have a special box of things to do - art and craft, baking, teddy, blanket etc so when he's away the box comes out and then the memories programme to bring more 'happy'

Be kind to yourself and def pick the battles

Not a planned time in hospital no. He seemed to be doing ok, but then all of a sudden he was being taken to hospital by ambulance. The day before I thought he looked slightly off, but he insisted all was fine. He hides it until he reaches crisis point and then it all just falls apart. He is always the quietest one in the hospital as he doesn't rant and rave, he just internalizes it all so it's really hard to tell where he is at. I think from what the doctors are saying he may well be transferred to a longer stay ward, so he could be in for months. I feel very conflicted about that as I know it's probably what's best for him, but the longer he is in, the harder it is for us. I'm just going to take one day at a time and focus on being there for dd.