Is it ever acceptable to shout at a child?

[RosaLuxembourg]

DD3, aged four, has been a complete nightmare to get to bed tonight - still bouncing off the walls at 9pm and finally DH just had enough and put her back into bed, stood over her and yelled at her to stay where she was. She screamed and sobbed until finally she fell asleep a couple of minutes ago. I felt really bad and told DH he shouldn't have shouted and now he is sulking with me. He says in his defence that he doesn't shout at them that often (true) and that most parents would have lost it with her long before. I just hate it though - I really hate hearing anyone being shouted at. DH isn't a very shouty person at all - am I being unreasonable in expecting him NEVER to shout?

Glad every thing got resolved, Rosa. Its so difficult at the end of a stressful day isn't it?

Sorry but I think you are being unreasonable to expect him never to shout.

If you don't like/do it fair enough - but if he does it on the odd occasion, that's his call.

FWIW - I go through phases of shouting and non-shouting. Having a good old roar on the odd occasion hasn't damaged my kids.

Sorry Rosa, I hadn't read that you have sorted things out.

I hope so.

DH and I were discussing this last night after I'd shouted at the DDs (4 and 5) who'd refused to go to bed. I did feel guilty as I know that part of the reason I got so angry was connected to my day not their behaviour (stressful time at work, nanny off sick, etc etc). DH and I consoled ourselves that we're good parents, but we're not perfect; that shouting tends to be confined to the point in hand ("Get into bed NOW!) rather than more generalised stuff ("You are always naughty and I don't know why I put up with you"); that it's reasonably infrequent and that's it's over quickly. Within 10 minutes or so the girls were tucked up in bed with kisses all round.

After a couple of glasses of wine we also wondered whether it's really helpful for children to live in a manufactured world where all adults are consistently reasonable, quiet, calm and logical however hard you push them. Maybe a short episode of inane barking from your loving parent gives a child a tiny but useful insight into behavioural cause and effect in the adult world.

And DH's reaction to the sad story of my inadequate parenting? A laugh, a hug, a glass of red wine and an admission that it made him feel better about the times he got angry too.

Bedtime is a real trigger for DH and me. We're tired, in our heads we've done with the day and, to be honest, the children and we just want to move on to dinner and slumping on the sofa. Also, lots of the techniques you might try in the day, just don't work. Ignoring bad behaviour, rewards, rationalising discussion, distraction, removing yourself - none of them seem to be effective at the very last point of the bedtime routine because your child lying in bed, right now, quiet if not asleep is the only acceptable outcome.

I'd challenge even the saintly Alfie Kohn not to get annoyed at this point.

I shout at ds sometimes and I really hate myself for it. I always feel like because I have had to resort to shouting that I am losing my grip and it does not help matters anyway. Dh rarely shouts at ds but on the rare occasion when he has raised his voice I don't like it and I wonder how awful it must sound when I shout.

Can't imagine a household where no-one ever shouts at the children. If your child has got to 4 without being shouted out you're a saint.

Children need to be taught to live with other people and that includes dealing with someone who is extremely angry with them. So when your daughter calmed down there should have been a chat about how wrong she was to behave so badly and how she should apologise to daddy. Then daddy can apologise for shouting. Dealing with angry people is one way we learn to avoid provoking anger. We also need to learn to apologise for bad behaviour.

Ds (3.5)sometimes will only take notice if we holler! I've had his ears checked and he's fine, just bloody minded, rude and self absorbed.

Shouting is one thing, DH wanging a wet dishcloth at him to stop him headng of with his mobile is quite another.

All fun here (not)

God I hope so - occasionally

I am in agreement with Tatt and Issymum. All this is a valuable and essential learning experience in life skills.

I sometimes feel that I try to hide my emotions from my children, be it anger (shouting) or sadness(crying). But children need to know that people get sad and angry and upset. Emotional literacy it's called. Are we raising a nation of emotionally illiterate children if we hide our feelings from them?

Blimey, there are a lot of non-shouting angels on mn...

I agree with Tatt & Issymum - I think that (in moderation) seeing a parent get angry, and then explain/talk about that anger is a useful process, in some ways. Dh comes from a family where there is no shouting, disagreement was frowned upon. He finds any level of conflict really hard - eg will avoid situations at work where he has to express anger/frustration- would rather tolerate a situation that sort it out, often. I on the other hand come from a household where shouting and disagreement was commonplace - I tend to loose my rag far too easily. I think that something between the two of us - where you've learnt both to control your emotions, and to express them - is a healthy place.

That's not to say we should shout at our kids for educational purposes, or that generalised shouting is good. But when something is towards the top end of naughty, shouting imo is an acceptable way to express that anger. Certainly dangerous behaviour warrents shouting imo - there is a ned to make clear to the child that that is NOT acceptable behaviour.

I didn't mean FAKE your feelings funny peculiar!! That would be odd! Just to taech your kids a lesoon? I think you mis understood what I meant.
What I meant was... I don't think I am doing my kids any favours by hiding strong feelings from them.

I shout at mine occasionally.
Unfortunately some teachers shout, so it's probably best if children have heard parents shout now & then or they'd be terrified when it happened at school!

spudmasher -x posted, my comments weren't aimed at you ... in fact I think we agree

god, i hope so or the police will be round to take me away.

Funny - sorry for snapping- premenstrual- and not one to hide my feelings!!!

After her first week in Y1, DD1 was saying how much she liked her teacher; she ended her character assessment with 'and she shouts' as in, how pleasantly familiar her behavioural techniques are.

In fact, DD1's Y1 teacher is absolutely lovely. She is warm, committed, humorous, loving and positively inspirational and I don't doubt for a moment that she occasionally shouts at the children and whilst that isn't exactly professional, I much prefer her to the very controlled but rather cold Reception teacher.

Now, teachers shouting. Hmmmm. That really gets my goat. I do think that teachers shouting is unacceptable in most circumstances. I am still pondering this...OK to get a child's attention if in danger. Hmmmm.

I agree Spudmasher that it is not something that you would like to happen frequently, but I imagine that in DD1's tiny, super-controlled, rather precious little prep school, a teacher so much as slightly and occasionally raising her voice would be worthy of comment!

Children really dislike it. It upsets them even if it is not aimed at them. Parents are different because the child knows that the parent loves them but they don't know that about the teacher and I think it makes them feel unsafe.

Yes, Spudmasher I was terrified of a couple of teachers that would shout at me in primary school.

Have you tried the wet towel flick?

I shout too

Surely it's a bit weird to never shout?

My dad was a big shouter so I try and keep it to a minimum

My DD1 is 4yo, and a sweet, adorable little girl. She's a little airy-fairy which is quite a lovely characteristic of hers. The only thing is when I ask her to do things (like put on her shoes which I'll place right beside her) she just won't do them (too easily distracted). I'll ask her twice more, then I raise my voice - she answers me "Yes, Mummy" in an upset voice, then does it. Then I feel so bad! I hate doing this, but sometimes if we're in a hurry there's no time for this dawdling.
I was the exact same as a child, and even now at work if anybody raises their voice to me I get upset and shocked I don't answer back! I don't want her to be the same.
On the other hand, you will always come across people that shout throughout your life and, if you were never shouted at as a child it would come as a big shock to you in your adult life!

from Issymum's post: 'After a couple of glasses of wine we also wondered whether it's really helpful for children to live in a manufactured world where all adults are consistently reasonable, quiet, calm and logical however hard you push them. Maybe a short episode of inane barking from your loving parent gives a child a tiny but useful insight into behavioural cause and effect in the adult world.'

I hope this is true as I am a shouter, esp. at bedtime and when we are out and he starts pushing it by playing up in shops, etc (that one's embarrassing).

I have a friend who WILL NOT shout under any circumstances at her child. When I shout, she flinches visibly. It makes me feel really terrible but at the same time I can't stand her martyred/saintly attitude (she just looks at her ds sorrowfully when he plays up but never DOES anything; his behaviour is not particularly great btw). Issymum's point gives me some hope that I'm not a psycho bitch mum from hell.