4yr old who still poos in pants - HELP NEEDED!!!!!

[BooMama]

Help me! My ds has just turned 4 and still poos in his pants. He never seems to be aware that a poo is coming and never calls me to help him when it is. One minute he's fine and then the next he's done a poo, usually accompanied by a wee. Most of the time he is ok with his wee but he never willingly goes to the loo by himself - I always have to prompt him to go. There is no regular pattern to the pooing so I can never get him to the loo on time. He has been out of nappies at night for two weeks and doing ok - he can stay dry all night we just have to watch out for the occasional poo!
He has been out of nappies in the day since he was 3 and potty training has been a real struggle. I am at the end of my tether and find it really hard not to lose my patience with him - there are only so many times I can say "next time we'll do it in the loo" and him reassure me cheerfully that "yes I will!". Recently I have been shouting at him and punishing him (ie turning the telly off) but it just makes us all really unhappy and I think it will only have a negative effect.
Really need some advice! Help us please!!!

hi, i too have had quite a struggle potty training ds who is now 3 and 7 mnths. the differance was he had control of his bowels but had loads of wee accidents. i put him back in pull ups (which he did not like!) and the accidents stopped. i can't remember the last accident he had now and i rarely have to prompt him to go to the loo. he also had a star chart reward system with stars for when he kept his pants dry.

i was totally sure before i put him in the pull ups that he was aware of weeing and was just being lazy! not sure that this is the same for your son but might be worth thinking about.

one thing i am fairly sure of was that with my son getting cross made things worse. however i also didnt tell him it didnt matter cos then when he had an accident he would say "it doesnt matter"!! so i just said "in the toilet next time please" and of course made a huge fuss and loads of praise when he did keep his pants dry.

hope some of this helps!

The turning point for DS2 was when I told him that he shouldn't push the poo out into his pants, he should push it out into the potty/toilet. This way of wording it seemed to click with him and he had very few acidents after that. I think it made he focus on the actual "action" rather than the result IYSWIM! Delightful eh?

He was 2y10 months when training and I don't think he'd made the connection between what he was doing and what was expected of him. Changig the wording slightly seemed to work.

HTH.

I really don't want to scare you boomama but have you taken your ds to the drs about this? It's just you say he doesn't know he wants a poo. My dd is only 1 but really, really struggled to poo. Took her to the drs several times who then reffered her to the hospital where she had to have a bowel biopsy. They were concerned about a condition (can't remember the name). But apparently a small bit of the bowel is missing so the child doesn't know they need to poo. On the other hand my ds (nearly 3) is fine with his weeing on the toilet but won't poo anywhere other than his pants or a nappy. I've tried everything but nothing works. I spoke to them at nursery about this and they said it always seems to be a problem with boys and apparently it'll just come to them. They said it just comes like someone switching a light switch on. I wish someone would switch my ds light on in this case. I'm fed up of throwing pooie pants away. Please don't let the suggestion of the drs put the fear of God in you, it was just a thought.

Thanks for all your advice! Woodpops - I did take him to the drs a while ago because he was complaining of stomach pains and he was referred to the hospital where they did an ultrasound of his stomach area and they didn't mention anything like that so hopefully he's ok. I had been seeing a health visitor about this and she never mentioned it as a possibility. Is your dd ok now?
I am seeing the nursery nurse soon as she is more used to dealing with his age group so maybe she'll have some advice.
I do think you may be right about the 'lightswitch' - I just never imagined it wouldn't have switched on by now!!
maisystar - you are so right about not getting cross with him. He did it again this afternoon and I was very stern with him and ticked him off and could see straight away that it wasn't going to achieve anything so I think I'm going to really have to try to be more gentle about it.
Soupdragon - thanks for the advice re wording! I have tried explaining it to him and (bless him) he asks me to help him push it out ("how do I do it?" ) I will try your advice and see if something clicks!
Thanks again - at the very least you have boosted my morale!!

Boomama, dd still not right. The effort she puts into pooing is awful. The hospital say everything is fine. But it really isn't OK. It's awful watching her trying to poo. She has cold sweats, goes bright red in the face to the extent she looks like she's going to do herself damage. She also sqeezes my hand so hard it hurts me and she's only 17 months. Am now keeping a diary for next time we're at hospital. Hopefully you'll crack the pooing with ds soon. My ds came out of nursery with dried on poo all down his legs and pants FULL of s**t on Monday. Believe me I wasn't happy about that one.

I had the same problem with DS1 (who is now 17yrs old!).

I got so frustrated with it that I made the problem 100 times worse.

Although it is hard, change him with out a cross word. Sometimes they cotton on that it generates a response from you even though it is a negative one.

After breakfast each morning, encourage him to sit on the toilet for a poo. Sometimes he will go, sometimes he will not.Getting into an expectant habit can help. We used lactulose for a short while because it may be that he has passed a hard stool in the past that has hurt him and therefore put him off. He will know it is coming but just doesn't want to pass it really.

Give him plenty of high fibre foods and make sure he drinks well. It will eventually sort itself out but not overnight.

I got a great book about the toilet and had stickers for each time that he did a poo in the toilet. If you do a search on amazon you might find a similar book that will be helpful.

Here is one here

Thanks, mears. Yes, we have that book! I think it is so funny (but the grandparents weren't impressed!)
Have been really gentle with him this week whenever he has had an accident. No change yet but I'm not expecting miracles overnight. At least it makes the whole process of clearing up easier if I can avoid us both getting upset about it.
He's taken to pooing in his sleep now which is awkward as he wets the bed at the same time - something he doesn't really do anymore. If we can get through tonight without a poo I'll try your suggestion of a regular time to try.
woodpops - your poor dd! My dd is is 16 months and so I can imagine how upsetting it must be to see her go through that when they don't really understand. Good idea about the diary.
I am shocked that the nursery hadn't cleaned up your ds! Had they not noticed?! That is exactly what I am worried about.

Who know's what the nursery was thinking. Mind you the children were playing outside so it may have been a case of ds just not telling anyone and no one noticing. Been thinking of taking him to the drs though. DS is nearly and his poo is never formed. It's always like melted chocolate. Hmmmm nice. Is this normal or should a 3 year old be doing formed poos??? Or is it just a case of having 2 children from either end of the spectrum. DD being very hard and formed and ds being very, very runny?? Any ideas anyone???

Woodpops,we had a very similar problem with ds2,we trid everything and it is soo distressing to watch.I have to say I found the HV etc and Drs very kind but pretty useless.In the end we went to ahomeopath,I have to say I was pretty sceptical but after about 3 months the problem was pretty much in the past.I still know if he is stressed about something because he will put off going but in general things are OK.I have also heard that cranial osteopathy can help with these problems.

Have just read your post again,our problem was like your DDs although I would be tempted to take the same route with your ds.Good luck

Have just read your post again,our problem was like your DDs although I would be tempted to take the same route with your ds.Good luck

Just an update here - saw a nursery nurse about the pooing and she has recommended giving him a nappy to poo in for the time being. When he gets more confident I can start getting him to wait on the loo whilst I fetch the nappy and so forth. Am still trying him on the loo for 5 mins in the evening which he is getting more used to. Also, loads of praise and sticker incentives!! - he gets a sticker for just having a try. Also to ignore the whole subject of toileting in conversations and give him lots of attention in other areas. Have only been doing this for a day but I am quite confident! At least she didn't show undue concern about his behaviour and just regarded it as something which would come slowly.

Just to reassure you that it does just happen at the 'click of a switch'. My ds was just like this (poo in pants). Then one day we watched either Antz or Bugz Life (can't remember the name, it was on beeb 1) and some flies went into a bar and ordered 'poo-poo cakes'. I know it all sounds very surreal but ds thought this was hysterical and we spent ages talking about how flies liked eating poos (yes, lovely I know) - spurred on by his older sister.

After that, he sat on the potty, did a poo and proudly announced that he had done a poo poo cake for the flies. We've never looked back since. He still doesn't like pooing on the toilet but I'm not going to force the issue as at least we've made some progress!

I think I have posted on every thread regarding pooing. Ds1 was terrible, we took him to a homeopath and she gave him Opium which seemed to work, and again as people have said before it was like a light going on. He now goes himself and even wipes his own botty! It really is a common problem, I think Primark pants are great cause they are cheap and you just chuck them away. Please don't loose heart, peer pressure will also take over. If you need to talk as Frasier would say "I'm listening"

Hi - just wanted to say thank you for all the advice given! The switch does indeed seem to have clicked with our ds. We had a breakthrough with the weeing after he saw a friend do a standing up one whilst out one day. Although we've tried that approach before to no avail this time it just seemed to click and the next day he announced that he wanted to do a "standing up wee like Jack". Since then he has happily taken himself to the loo whenever needed - I now think he just really hated having to sit down all the time. He was quite scared of falling in! Now we have no accidents and it is wonderful!
A couple of days after the first breakthrough he came through holding his bottom and said he was going to do a poo in the loo! He then got out his loo seat and hop up stool and proceeded to go all by himself. We were FLABBERGASTED!!!
We now have a routine where he always goes sometime after tea before bed and luckily he is now very regular. I am so so so relieved and happy and delighted!!! Especially with him starting school next month.
So thank you so much for the advice and support. All I can advise to anyone in a similar situation is just to back off with the pressure! Also, we gave him Shrek stickers for wees and Spiderman stickers (x2) for a poo to go in albums and that really proved a major incentive!
Again, thank you, thank you!