My 10 yr old dd is driving me mad with her 'rules' and obsessive behaviour

[emsiewill]

Since she was a toddler, dd1 has been very keen on things being done her way, when she was a toddler, it seemed fairly normal toddler behaviour.

However, she hasn't grown out of it to any great extent.

It is usually worse when she is in a bad mood (mornings before school particularly bad).

Here are some examples of how it affects us all.

1. Dh makes her packed lunch, and makes the mistake of putting everything into her bag. She has to take it all out and put it all back in again as he has "done it wrong".

2. She has brushed her hair, dd2 walks past and (eg) accidentally catches her arm. Dd1 then has to take her hair out and start all over again.

I could go on with more and more examples, but don't want to bore you.

She has recently insisted that no-one goes in her room - I have to put her clean clothes outside, she puts them away (which she does do). She doesn't want the cleaner to clean her room / change her bed, which I have agreed to on the proviso she does it herself.

I just took some toys from one room and put them on the floor in her room (all the time taking care not to enter the room). She has gone ballistic, "why did you touch my things?", "you've messed up my room", "I can't go in there now, I'll have to take everything out and put it all away again".

I am finding this all quite exhausting, and find myself vacillating between agreeing to abide by (some of) her "rules" and tellling her that she is a child, and she will live by my rules.

What would you do? Are we making a rod for our back by falling in with these things?

Do you think this is because she is very strong-willed and likes to control the situation, or is it that she needs to have everything just so in order to be able to cope day to day?
If it is the latter, it might be worth having a quiet word with your GP for help. Some coping strategies and relaxation exercises may be helpful.

Yes you are making a rod for your own back. TBH I would take her to GPs and get a child psychiatry referral... this sounds way beyond 'normal' DD-type fussiness.

This sounds a bit like my dd, also 11. She goes mad if anybody sits on her bed, or a beanbag as "now I'll have to put it all right again". Has also taken to washing her hands a lot, especially after tying her shoes, as she says laces have germs on them. I'd put it down to pre-teenage awkwardness and her asserting herself a bit in "her" space - the hand thing bothers me a bit though.

Sorry, just seen your dd is 10 not 11!

We have got so used to her "ways" that mostly we don't even think about these things, it's just when she explodes that it gets too much.

I am quite reluctant to take her to the GP, she is a very "aware" child, and would be mortified if she thought that I thought there was something "wrong" with her mentally. But I can see why you are suggesting it. I mostly think it's because she is strong willed, but some of the things she says do sometimes make me wonder if there's more to it than that...

janeite - yes, that's exactly the kind of thing my dd does "I'll have to put it right again" Hasn't done the hand washing thing though, but nothing would surprise me.

Some of it is down to her asserting independence etc, I'm sure, which is why I've agreed to the things about her room - but I have to draw the line somewhere, for example the other day I entered the lounge without "knocking 3 times" (something she often says for people to do when she is watching TV in there). She went absolutely beserk...so now I have made it clear that she can't make rules about "public" areas of the house.

It's so wearing though...

I suffer with OCD, and I have to say that alarm bells would be ringing for me. Some of what you describe sounds like normal moody pre-teen behaviour but I can't help but think that some of it sounds very OCD-like.

Everyone has touches of obsessive behaviour sometimes, but with OCD it gets out of control - to the point that, if it's OCD, she can't not do it. The more rigid you become in your refusal to pander to it, the worse the OCD is likely to become. I know it's wearing for you but if this is OCD it's horrendous for her too.

I do think you need to consider involving your GP - maybe list all of the things she's doing and make a GP's appointment to discuss it while she's not there initially.

Sounds very hard, emsie. Tbh, I think you should probably gently challenge her on these things (and take the tantrums if you have to) sometimes but I can see that's a v hard option. IMO this could either be bad behaviour or a controlling response to anxiety. Perhaps a bit of both. Either way, it's not good for her to let it continue as if it's acceptable behaviour or for the rest of you to feel compelled to walk on eggshells. If you fall in with her then her version of the world is confirmed which is not good, either for anxiety (shows her she's right- most advice afaik is that facing the fear gradually is better) or for bad behaviour. Have you asked her why she feels that she has to do things in certain ways and asked her what she thinks will happen if she doesn't? What does dh think? How is she at school?

Some children are just more ordered than others and are fine and generally quite happy with life and she might well be one of those- in which case tell her that stropping about in this manner is out of order! But if you think it is more than that and could be causing her distress it might be worth getting some advice from somewhere like Young Minds . She does sound sensitive and I agree that dragging her to the GP isn't the greatest plan but if her behaviour is being caused by anxiety it might be worth seeking some extra support. Hope things improve and it's just a phase.

Thanks all for your input.

We haven't talked in depth about why she has to have things done "her" way, but she does go on and on about people not touching "her stuff" and also has a real bee in her bonnet about me "not listening" to her. I try to explain that just because I don't let her have it all her own way, doesn't mean that I haven't listened. Half the time she talks me into a corner and ties me up with her logic.

As far as I can tell, all of this behaviour only happens at home - she has never had anything less than glowing reports from teachers at school, and has a good group of friends. She does get frustrated with them, but seems to be able to deal with the fact that things won't always go her way when she's with them (either at school or at their houses)

We did have an awful sleepover with 3 of her friends when she turned 7. She had planned a timetable and what they would all do hour by hour...when her friends weren't interested in doing the prescribed things at the prescribed time, she had a massive meltdown, started throwing their stuff out of her room, calling them names and told them all to leave . We can all laugh about it now (including her), but at the time it was an absolute nightmare...She is a lot more flexible than that in social situations now, it does seem to be just at home with us where it all goes pear shaped.

I am convinced that my dsis will be reading this, as she is a confirmed lurker, and also my mn stalker. Perhaps she will be brave enough to make her very first post on this subject, and tell you all her view.... Go on, you know you want to...

emsiewill you have my sympathy

dd1 is only 7 but can be a bit like this

she had a panic attack yesterday when her toddler cousin messed up her room

she was desperately re organising everything whilst crying her eyes out

I do think she has OCD tendencies and she is definitely much much worse when stressed

I don#t think I would cope with the not going in the room thing. That seems very extreme and so so impractical for the rest of the family.

what do you think would happen if you did go in there? What does SHE think would happen?

you have a 10 year old similar to mine and i am sorry but when reading some of the similarities it made me laugh. My dd1, she plans, she draws what she will wear, she lays her clothes out neatly, her room is the tidiest in the house. She hates anyone in her room, but i do go in. If something is lost it my fault and i have moved it.
When she had friends for a sleep over she had a schedule and they kep to it. She did one for Christmas day too.
She is up first and dressed first in the house, before 7.30am we dont have to leave for school until 8.30am!

So what do i do ? i let her, do the above and make no comment, most of the time.
I let her pack and unpack her own school bag.
She makes the lists, but we dont always keep to them.
She does her own hair and then she will re-do it if its not neat enough.
I make sure we leave the house the same time (give of take 2 mins) every morning for school.
oh and keep her shoes in the same place.

She does have times when she is slack in her ways, and so i dont worry. I love it when she stays in her PJs or makes her room a mess. I tell her not to clean it up and it will be OK like that for a few days.

I will note if anything became compulsive, but i think some of these things are just their way of having a sense of control.

agree wiht monny
this is odd

emsiewill reading through again I do agree that some of the things do sound more serious than what my DD likes to have in her control. Also her way of doing things doesnt create a real problem for us. Whereas it does for you. If it continues take the advice given here.

you would be helping her by seeking help. it sounds like ocd to me. i teach a boy a bit like this. he is 10. eg he spends AGES getting his written work 'just so' and won't go bear foot in PE for fear of 'foot infections'. he is getting help, and is really improving. your dd cant help it. she needs help to process the anxieties that are causing her to behave in this way. try googling 'ocd children'. good luck.

emsiewill, I have little experience of OCD, but this really does smack of OCD to me. Particularly the "I can't go in there now, I'll have to take everything out and put it all away again" comment and the knocking three times thing.

My understanding of the problem with OCD is that unless it is tackled it has the propensity to escalate ... if rules keep being added without any being taken away, that is another sign.

I think WWB's suggestion of going to the GP alone first is a very good one. I have to say that if it isn't tackled now then it will just become harder to tackle as time goes on.

HTH.

ah wotzaname

you sound like a nice mum to have

thanks i try to be

Emsie, i am sorry i have not read the whole thread, but it does sound like OCD (i know i have had a life time of it).
Have you ask her if she is worried about something, could there be something that she feels is outside her control, and this is her way of controlling what she can?
Is she like it at school?
Please speak to the school and your G.P.

The things she does are not "wrong" and if handeled well she will not be made to feel "odd" or "different".

Hope you get some help, (((hugs)))

Wotzaname my dd sounds exactly the same as yours. Enid, I read your post about your dd earlier, and thought of my dd - she recently spilt something in her room, and started having a similar type of panic attack.

I don't "pander" to her wishes all the time - I have told her that if I need to go into her room I will, but I will ask first. I actually think that this is fair enough now she is 10. I try and get her to "chill" about things, and she can sometimes...trouble is she's so much like me, I can understand the way she thinks, and it doesn't help, cos then I start to wonder whether she might be right, and I can understand why she wants things to be organised...

It's hard to separate the growing up and needing privacy issues from the obessive issues...

Dh usually does the morning school run, which I think she finds stressful, as he is not a morning person, so gets up at the last possible minute, which probably makes her feel like things are going to go wrong - I know that's how it makes me feel.

It doesn't help that she deals with stress by getting angry (rather than withdrawing or whatever).

She really is a great, intelligent, thoughtful, polite child most of the time. It's just when she goes off on one I find it so hard to deal with.

emsiewill I think my DD finds the weekends less stressful than the week. School days are worse. She does like everthing to go to plan in the morning and if it doesnt, she hates it and gets cross with everyone. My younger DD could happily be still getting dressesd with 10 minutes to go and wouldnt care as long as she had her nickers on the right way round.

I think some of the school stuff is linked to not wanting to be late. ie lunch box not packed right in her bag. Maybe she is rushed in morning when she arrives at school and has to put her lunchbox on a trolly before she can go into class and hates being late. So if its packed wrongly it takes her longer and she may get stressed about it. Maybe ask her about it.

And the hair thing. I know mime has low self confidence with her class mates and wants it all to be just right, so no-one says anything and she doesnt draw attention to herself.

Mine hates being late which is why i have to re-assure her about the time we leave in the morning.

I think you are being fair about her room. If my DD shuts her door I do knock and say "is it OK to come in", She says yes anyway. Not sure what id do if she said no!

I really think this needs tackling before you get the added stress of teenage angst on top. Especially shocked about having to knock to go into your own sitting room!

i thinkk we are talking about her bedroom

She has always hated having attention focussed on her, and although she is gorgeous (well, I would say that, wouldn't I?!), does worry about how she looks and if she "fits in".

My dd2 is just like dh - laid back, no idea of time, life just happens to her (and she wouldn't care if her knickers were the wrong way round lol!). So I'm sure that dd1 feels she's "on her own" in the mornings, as she's the only one who seems bothered whether they get there on time or not. They get a bus to school, and have never once missed it, so there's nothing really to stress about, but I can really empathise with her thinking they might.

I do worry about her need to be in control of everything, and I will look more at OCD in children tomorrow, but I don't think I will take any further action at the moment.

I will also try to talk to her about what she thinks will happen if she couldn't have things the way she wants, but I will have to pick my time carefully, or it could lead to another blow up, and we have enough of them without me provoking one!

The knocking on the lounge door thing is something both dd1 and dd2 have done for ages - and not really caused any problems until now - you know, just one of those little foibles you don't think anything of.

However, I have knocked it on the head since last week's performance. (excuse the pun!).

Sounds like we have similar things to deal with. I hope you get some answers. They are little darlings underneath it all.