help in dealing with defensive parents - long post

[sixlostmonkeys]

I'm hoping some of you can pass on some useful advice and/or experiences here.

Long before I had my ds I noticed that one of the most unpleasant aspects of parenting can be dealing with other parents after an incident
The instinct to protect/defend ones own child seems to overwhelm any common sense or logic people would normally apply to situations.
Pre-warned of this when I had my ds (now 10 yrs old) I made every effort to fight the urge to stamp my foot and state NOT my son! I haven't had to deal with many incidents over the years but I recall a couple where I was left rather frustrated as my lack of immediate foot-stamping denial not only distressed ds who would have thought i didn't have automatic confidence in him but also smirks from the other party who continue to deny and defend with no apology.
This said, i believe we aren't doing our children any favours by offering a no questions asked defense and I continue to behave in what I consider a healthier, more balanced manner.

An incident this morning has brought to the fore a realisation that I don't have the skills to deal with other parents in a way that doesn't leave me feeling so frustrated and somewhat angry, and more importantly leaves a situation unsolved.

Has anyone had any experiences where they have discovered a certain way of approaching, replying, etc actually works and encourages the other parent to actually remove the blinkers for a while, thus allowing things to be dealt with fairly?
I'm thinking this is like asking if anyone has next week's winning lottery numbers
Dealing with ones own problems is by comparison much easier as we know we are the only ones who will suffer the consequences should it go pear shaped, but when we are acting on behalf of another, our child, the pressures are much higher. I admit I am now at a loss at how to deal with this issue.

This post is getting rather long winded. I'll add this morning's incident below with a warning here that I do go on a bit!

Ds is now suffering terribly with depression to the extent that he can't sleep at night and wants to kill himself. We have been going to therapy sessions at the hospital and a result of discussions with the psychiatrist is we have discovered the extent of bullying that he has been suffering at school. The bullying is being dealt with and there is a (slight) improvement in ds state of mind. he is so very unhappy at school (previously has always been very happy at school and does very well in lessons)myself and the school staff are doing all we can to try and create a happy school life for him.
The teacher informed me that he is spending more time with a boy 'S' who has been a friend of ds for many years now. It was agreed that it would be a good idea to encourage this friendship with after school get-togethers.
I approached S's mother this morning, and explained briefly (in confidence) the situation and asked about S coming here for tea and play. I was totally knocked-for-six when she refused point blank. She stated her reasons as being that ds has in the past upset S with name calling. She was refering a time, probably about a year ago where she claimed ds had been calling S gay I explained I wasn't aware of this situation this way round but that i do recall the the time in question as ds had told me that S plus two girls were constantly name-calling ds and he had asked me what gay meant. My suggestion to her that any name calling from ds could have been in retaliation towards the 3 of them landed on deaf ears. She simply wouldn't entertain that as a possiblity at all. I acknowledged that had been aware of problems a year or so ago between ds and S when it seemed S was going through a rough stage where ds was on many occasion the target of S's pushing/thumping/kicking and refered to the incident which resulted in ds getting a chipped tooth. Despite the fact that I was called into the school over this incident she again was in total denial claiming that S has never been rough, would never push or hit and that the chipped tooth must have been the result of an accident.
The constant denial left me feeling so unbelievably frustrated but I had to remain calm for fear of making matters worse for ds.
S has been asking ds if he can come to tea so I now have to explain, well lie, as to why he can't come. I cannot possibly bring all this up with ds as it will be the last straw for him. It would seem that these incidents of long ago have been dealt with and forgotten in a much more mature way between the two boys than with S's parents (parents being professors in mental health and child care incidentally)

Due to the recent bullying I am anticipating possible confrontations with the parents of the two boys concerned. This morning's event has stripped me of what little confidence I had in being able to deal with matters in a way that will ultimately create a harmonious school life for ds.
Do i let people walk all over me/us and hope that things will magically work out ok or do I allow my ds to see me defend him rigorously? The latter, I do see as having the effect of more hostility passed on from parents to children.

Thanks for reading this
Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I'm totally drained and at an absolute loss.

dont know about your situation - but i there are various ways of dealing with things.

sometimes i do tell the kids to tell me the truth - that i will defend them, they will face my punishment but not public humiliation.

their choice- kids lie to get out of trouble you see - that often leaves you as a parent vulnerable - and i dont think quick on my feet - so things like well your ds did xxx to my ds floor me as its a situation i havent heard about.

whereas i talk to my kids and tell them to give me the full skinny on the situationbecuase if something comes out i dont know about i will be cross.

I used to be like you - try to be fair and sensible - but i want playing on a fair pitch and there was no ref. i then met a friend who would GOB off to the death for her kids then give them what for indoors - and i thought - yeah theres a strategy i am going to use in future

how old is your kid

if things were that bad - i would seriously move scchool

or if my kid wanted to kill himself i think i would give up work and home teach.

seriously.

ds is 10.

the option of moving school is one that is mulling in my head at the mo.
teaching at home would have it's positive and negative points - one being that ds really needs friends around him at the mo.

I take on board urging ds to tell me the full story as soon as an incident occurs.

Putting your son's issues aside, I have learned that parents should never get involved in children's fallouts as the children make up and the parents are left fuming. I have an ongoing situation with my 13yr old DD and really was at the point of thinking of contacting another girl's parents but decided against it. Since DD has gone back to school after the holidays, all is now resolved between the girls.

A comment I would make regarding your post is that S hasn't been asked directly whether he wants to come for tea. It might be too late to do that now following the conversation you have had with his mother. I know the school has stated that your DS and S have been spending time together at school but you don't know what S actually thinks.

Perhaps your DS should ask S whether he wants to come for tea and see what the response is? If S wants to come then his mother is going to have to explain to him why she won't let him. It may be that if she sees S keen to come, she will let go of previous concerns. If she says no and S says he isn't allowed to come, then you could have a discussion with your DS. I wouldn't discuss it with him prior to knowing if S actually wants to come.

Could you follow all that?

I hope the bullying is sorted. If you 'google' there are good website support sites for advice for children and parents.

I would avoid all contact with parents of the two boys if at all possible. If not possible I would try to keep a very calm and dignified approach and say something like' I am working with the school to try and sort this out for everybody and hope you do to'. Nothing stops somebody up for a confrontation when they are faced with an oasis of calm with a very rational response. I do think it is the school's duty to deal with the bullies and their parents and not you and your sons. Like Mears said I would look for futher advice and support.

S has been asking ds lately if he can come to tea. S has always loved coming here to play.. and now I come to think of it S has always prefered to come here rather than have ds round at his house. I've always got the impression he likes the atmosphere here.
The past week or so it has been the usual "S wants to come to play, when can he come?" which usually is followed by arrangements being made between the two parents. I guess I assumed the usual pattern would follow, which is why I was so shocked this morning.
I am assuming that S has already made his mother aware that he would like to come and so, yes, she is going to have to explain to him her reasons. I now have to prepare myself for these reasons getting back to ds via S - he will be so upset.

I totally agree that parents shouldn't fall out over their kids. You are right, the kids do make friends, meanwhile the parents remain enemies. I really didn't expect this behaviour from a woman I had perceived as being sensible

I am afraid I am a bit confused now. Since S has always been coming to play anyway, I suspect that the issue is perhaps more that his mum does not want him to continue coming incase he becomes too involves in your DS's issues? I think perhaps that explaining to her the reason you want to encourage the friendship may have backfired. Such a pity if that is the case considering her background.

I am afraid I agree with Mears. Would you want your ds to end up in the line of fire to help someone else? I think natural protective instincts probably outweigh altruism on this one. If I were you, I'd leave it for a while and then say to her that you understand that S actually wants to come to your house and you don't therefore understand why she thinks there are problems between the two boys and see what she says.

I agree with your approach of keeping it low-key. I wouldn't have thought it helpful to have an unnecessary argument with another parent of a boy who has a developing friendship with your ds.

Yes, I'm afraid I have made it sound confusing.

S has been coming here for a few years although, it is probably about a year since he has been. I never questioned the lapse as it is quite normal for children to move back and forth socially - one minute they are best friends with one group of children then the group splits and a best friend becomes an aquaitance whilst another becomes the new best friend and so on and so forth. Usually it's just developing interests that forges new friendships rather than any sinister fall outs. I'm sure we've all been through it: we love that dc is friends with x but when they announce that y is their new best friend because they support the same football team (or whatever) we can't interfere - it's a natural part of growing up.
But, I witter again

There were obviously issues a year or so ago, but I'm now tending to think that the issues originated more from the parents than the children themselves, who seem to have 'moved on'
The mother in question is part of a clique of parents who have always made it perfectly clear to me in the past that I am not part of the group. They are all high earning professionals (big houses and nannies etc) whereas I am a financially embarrassed single parent. I have always ignored their animosity towards me because it's just too silly. the important bit in the school playground is that the children get on well - and afterall, children are oblivious to such differences.
You make a good point mears, in that she may not want her child to become involved. I think I may have given her more credit than she deserved by thinking she could rise above it...

Is there any, any possibility of switching schools?

I was bullied from age 11 to 14 & when the light finally came on for Mom she switched me out; best decision!! Life changed for me at that point. The school where I had been was a social caste system, a hierarchy built on minutia since nearly everyone's family was well-off there ... the slightest deviation would send a kid to the bottom of the pile, so to speak. Life's way, way too short for such BS; is there any possible way of just ditching this situation?

I think you have to step back from this. You cannot get a 100% accurate picture of what goes on between your ds and his friends(as you have said yourself). So don't get into detailed discussions about behaviour with the parents. I have just re read this bit of your message:

""I was totally knocked-for-six when she refused point blank. She stated her reasons as being that ds has in the past upset S with name calling. She was refering a time, probably about a year ago where she claimed ds had been calling S gay I explained I wasn't aware of this situation this way round but that i do recall the the time in question as ds had told me that S plus two girls were constantly name-calling ds and he had asked me what gay meant. My suggestion to her that any name calling from ds could have been in retaliation towards the 3 of them landed on deaf ears""

FWIW, I think things would have been better if they had gone like this:

"I was totally knocked-for-six when she refused point blank. She stated her reasons as being that ds has in the past upset S with name calling. She was refering a time, probably about a year ago where she claimed ds had been calling S gay... I was taken aback but hopefully hid this from her, saying the boys seem to be spending lots of time happily together at school according to the teacher, so it looks like they have grown up a bit and are sorting things out between themselves. I will keep a close eye on things and if there is any big falling out, I will be on it in a second. I left it at that."

So in other words, I think you should be more general and positive in what you say and not bring up details of the distant past, even if the other parent brought up the past first.

I think the other parent may be afraid of getting her son involved in your son's problems. He has caused upset to your son before and your son is feeling especially vulnerable at the moment. She may well want to avoid any more incidents for everyone's sake. This may not be very kind of her but it's her protective instinct towards her own child coming out.

From what you've said, I don't hold out huge hope of this parent changing her mind, which is sad. Especially if she is part of a clique.

I think you may be flogging a dead horse here, so IMO you should move on and help your son find other friends in or out of school. Does he like out of school clubs and activities? Now might be a perfect time to get him to join something. Tell your son you are happy he is friends with S in school. Sometimes friendships are just based at school and there is nothing wrong with that.

thank you for the replies.

re changing schools - ds only has 6 months left at this school and then he moves to high school. For this and a number of other reasons I'm hoping I don't have to take him out of this school (the added stress of finding and then joining a new school could add to his worries) This said, the option is not closed in my mind. I'm working VERY closely with the school (with the help of our therapist) to try and get the recent bullying sorted. I'm having to push quite a lot to steer the school into dealing with it in a manner that I feel is appropriate. I have had to refuse some of their suggestions, luckily with with the back-up of the therapist who actually jumped on them before I could by explaining why their proposed actions would be totally inappropriate. I still find it rather frustrating...eg - one of their policies is that they will not ask the children to apologise (even a two way apology which as we all know is often the only way when we are hearing the usual he-did-this-he-did-that)
Imo an apology not only serves to make a person acknowledge a wrong doing but also breaks the ice allowing things to move forward. But I'm trying to hold back/stay calm - maybe my ways aren't correct (the little gremlin on my shoulder is now shouting "oh yes you are right! the school is far too PC wishy-washy right-on...")
My way of thinking at this moment in time is if the school do deal with it (or at least keep trying) I will continue to send ds there, but at the back of my mind I do know that there could well be a last straw where i will then take him out of the school.

tigermoth - thanks. I will make every effort to do as you advise, ie be more general and positive in any future conversations.
I normally do act in such a manner (although there haven't been too many incidents over the years with ds) but I think it was the sheer shock of the other mother bringing up these incidents of the past that threw me into needing to try and clarify an event.

It was the advice from GP/therapist/psychiatrist to seek support from others that prompted me to approach this mother the way I did and I admit now that I am still feeling frustrated and angry over it - more than I would do under normal circumstances. All this is kept to myself as I cannot allow my ds to find out about it.

Ds joined a bowling club last week and we are in the process of getting details of a football club he has been a bit happier this weekend and if all goes well at school tomorrow we may be on the right track ....fingers crossed.

I shall act calmly and possitively in all situations and throw a blanket over the shoulder-Gremlin who keeps urging me to "go get'em girl!"

Good to hear you are moving on from this.

It seems the advice from your therapist to seek support from others, might be best used when meeting fresh people at your son's sports clubs and new school.

Other mother sounds horrible and a bit nuts. Find someone else that you like and your son is OK with to ask round. Not everyone is a vile crashing snob. I'd be bloody delighted if anyone asked my son round for tea. Seriously, I do think the other mother sounds crazy. Don't let her crush your confidence. You sound very down and ultra-sensitive. If it is only six months and your son is really suicidal I'd seriously consider keeping him at home if that is remotely possible.

And yes, Tigermoth is bang on, friends don't only have to come from school.