Advice needed - 3yo getting out of bed

[BlackbirdOnTheWire]

DS (3.1) will not go to sleep at night without getting out of bed multiple times. He still naps during the day and needs the nap - we've tried many times to make him go through but invariably he conks out by 4.30-5pm, whatever the activity. He is fully toilet-trained by day (has been for nearly a year), wears pull-ups at night but is nearly always dry in the morning.

Tiredness doesn't make any difference except that if he's overtired, it'll be 10 or 11pm before he gives in, whereas normal levels, he'll get up for the last time at 9pm.

We're tried everything, rewards, sanctions, Gro-clocks, rapid return, discussion & negotiation, etc.

His favoured tactic is to grin and say 'need a wee'. We tell him he doesn't, he went 5 mins before. He insists, gets agitated, we tell him to go in his pull-up, he cries, we take him to the loo. He sits there for 10 mins, forces out the tiniest wee and is then triumphant.

If we refuse and take him back to bed, he becomes increasingly upset, culminating in screaming which disturbs the neighbours (they've complained) and wakes DD. Finally, he will threaten to be sick and then if we still don't give in, will actually vomit. By this point he will have worked himself into such a state that he will have breathing problems and need his inhaler too.

We need help, fast. Does anyone have any advice or even recommendations of any professionals who can help? We can't go on like this, we are getting to bed at 1am, shattered and pissed off.

What is your going to bed routine with your son?

Exactly the same as it's always been, for both him and DD...

Dinner, then bath if there's time (not every day, eg not if swimming lesson that day or on a particularly late afterschool activity night), get ready for bed, then bedtime story, last trip to the loo (ha!) and into bed. Allowed story/lullabies CD - DD always says yes, DS invariably says no. Same goodnight wording to both every night. Bedtime - aim for 7, not always possible with afterschool activities but 7.30 latest.

How long have you tried all the different techniques for?

2-3 weeks at a time - problem is that after 14 consecutive evenings ending in vomiting (after which we obviously take him to the bathroom and clean him up, at which point he has 'won'), we see little point in pursuing a strategy which we can't follow through and we try a different one. However, after two weeks of no impact at all, eg he is simply not interested in winning stickers/chocolate etc, then we switch again. But after 3 weeks of removing a toy every time he gets out of bed, his room is bare and he doesn't give a monkey's... Or conversely, he decides he cares about one particular thing and screams till he vomits, ending as before, in the bathroom (by which point he has again 'won' and doesn't care about the toy anymore or earning it back. We haven't yet found an effective strategy to pursue - his vomiting tactic outmanoeuvres us.

He is not interested in getting up to play or be with us. He just wants to use the loo, with our help, in the bathroom, every 15 mins for 5-10mins a time for 2-3 hrs. A potty in his room provokes screaming and eventually, if not removed, violence, kicking, throwing, flailing, writhing and finally vomiting. Each time he goes straight back to bed with no fuss. Each trip in itself is fine - it's just the number of them, every night, for a year, and the subsequent massive disruption to our evenings, relationship, health and mental well-being.

have you tried sitting with him while he goes to sleep? Would he still get up for a wee?
no drinks for an hour or so before bed?
Maybe keep taking him to the toilet if he wants but dont talk and make it boring?

You have probably tried all of these sorry it sound exhausting

That sounds really difficult, you could try waking him up just before he normally wakes to get up and taking him to the toilet to see if he needs a wee then putting him back to bed. He might still be tired at this point as you woke him up and go back to sleep.

When dd gets like this I go in and see her and give her the option of giving her an extra toy or putting her night time music on - this gives her the opportunity to feel like she's chosen something and she's in control and usually it works - but you say you've tried discussion and negotiation so sorry if that's not helpful at all.

Does he purposely vomit? Or it this something he can't help because he works himself up?

Yes to sitting with him, but he gets out of bed, stands by the chair I'm sitting in and says 'I need a wee' :-S

We take him to the loo with minimal conversation - 'have you finished?' Being about the only words.

He doesn't usually have a drink for an hour or so before bed anyway, other than a couple of sips of water post-inhaler and with medication (tablets, he chews but needs to wash down the bits). However, it's not the volume of liquid that's the cause - he really strains to squeeze the teensiest drop out each time in order to justify the loo trip.

He doesn't actually go to sleep then wake up for the loo - this rigmarole is all part of his bedtime routine as far as he's concerned. So he goes to bed at 7ish but is rarely asleep before 9.30. He then wakes around 4.30-5, often coughing (asthma) and may snooze for another 30-60 mins but only in our bed. No surprises then that he still needs a nap and is hugely overtired. When we've tried to ditch the nap, to force him to go straight to sleep at 7, he hasn't made it past 4.30-5ish usually, and on the couple of occasions he's made it to bedtime he's been so overtired he's hysterical and the loo/screaming act has gone on even longer.

I don't really understand the reasons behind the loo trips - no physical need, doesn't seem to want us (eg trots backs to room and puts himself back in bed) - unless it's about control of some kind. Or a desire to destroy our lives, which is what it sometimes feels like!

Re purposely vomiting, he says "if you do not take me to do a wee, I will be sick again" then gags a bit, makes himself cough, repeats the threat, screams, gags some more and then vomits. So I think he does intentionally do it, though there's the possibility he just knows that's the culmination of his chosen course of behaviour.

So he's got you running around after him?

No week, let him scream, let him vomit.......and leave him in it, do not clean him up. Feign indifference to what he does as though you really don't care.

I am wondering, if he goes by himself a lot, whether he has a urine infection like cystitis which is making him feel like wanting to go all the time. I would get that checked out. If it comes back negative, then come down on him HARD and do not let him play you at all, even if he lies in his own vomit all night. Obviously if he needs his inhaler, you give it to him but without saying a word. Then you leave the room again.

If he's got you running around like this and he's only 3 he's learned from somewhere in the past that he can manipulate you whenever he wants by just keeping on. You just need to keep your cool longer than he can!!

Sit with him at bedtime (so you don't exhaust yourself and get annoyed going up and down stairs). Take him for a wee every time he asks, in the most boring way possible. If he really wants to chat whilst you are sitting with him, do so in the most boring way possible and close it down calmly when you can (eg most responses are "it's time to sleep now"/"I don't really know" etc). I agree with the comment that you just need to keep your cool longer than he can. I know it feels virtually impossible when you are tired and fed up, but if you can stay relaxed then it will help him to relax and help this habit to die away. I would move his official night-time bedtime closer to 9pm if you want to keep the nap. In my experience you are very lucky if your 3 year old will have an afternoon nap AND go to bed at 7pm.

PS Both my children had this same obsession! And I found the best way to deal with it was to give in, do what they asked, and act fairly bored with it. Once I was no longer acting and genuinely was just bored (not wound up), funnily enough it was no longer a game/battle of wills and they just stopped. And make sure YOU have eaten your evening meal before the bedtime routine, so you are not hungry whilst trying to settle them down - essentially you need to be thinking "yeah, I have all night to do this and that's fine, it's the last thing I've really got to do". Sorry, easier said than done, I know.

Sorry - this sounds exhausting! Where abouts in the country are you and would you want to pay privately to see someone?

Agreed about getting him checked for physical need to go...

Sorry it's taken a while to get back, DD came down with the bug that's going round.

Ok, so at the moment communication is minimal. Repetition of the same phrase (eg 'bedtime') if anything, but general wordless on our part and avoidance of eye contact too.

I can't leave him in vomit. It may well work, but I just can't bring myself to do that (and I really struggle with the smell as it is). The closest I can come is that when he tells me he's going to be sick if I don't do as he wants, I say "fine, but in your blanket and you clean up". I then grab his comfort blanket to catch the vomit, rinsing it off later but leaving it in a bucket for him to 'wash' the next day (obvs after he's 'waashed' it I stick it in the machine!). This so far has just antagonised him further, not sure it's working. I strip him off, wipe him down and then put him back in bed in just his pull-up, no pyjamas as a consequence of him vomiting on them.

I don't want him to keep the nap!!! I want him to drop the bloody nap and just go to sleep at a decent time! We tried again to drop the nap this weekend, managed to get him to 5.45 on Saturday but the afternoon was hell. He then woke up at 5 on Sunday, we pushed through and he conked out at 3pm for 20 mins. Bedtime at 7, followed by two hours of screaming and getting out of bed, and he woke twice in the night and then was up at 4.40 this morning. He fell asleep at 9.30am in the car on the way to a doctor's appointment (5 mins drive) and I couldn't wake him. I carried him in, doctor did his examination (chest, ear, throat, following recent infection) and he still didn't wake. I really can't see how we can get him to drop the nap, consolidate sleep and stop all the messing about.

I don't really have all night though - I have to work evenings (mostly from home, but still have to fit in a good two-three hours most days) so that's not really helping the stress levels. Last night I didn't finish working till 1.30am, when he woke and I gave up, so him waking at 4.40 was an absolute killer. DH was great and took him downstairs but he continued to tantrum down there so I couldn't get back to sleep. His tantrums are absolutely huge, it's not just bedtime - but bedtime seems much harder to cope with because it should be my/our time, and because of the knock-on effects (worrying about disturbing the neighbours, not getting enough sleep, not having time to work and doing it badly, waking up DD, etc).

It's not an infection, I am certain (and the doc agrees, didn't feel the need to do a test) - DS sits on the loo for up to 10 minutes trying desperately to squeeze out 2 or 3 drops, and then says "see, I did say I did need to do a wee and I did do a wee". It's definitely about power. I asked the doctor today bu he said DS is too young for counselling which is all that he can offer, and that it's just a sign of an 'active intelligent mind' - like that makes me feel better. I don't want him to have an active mind, I want him to have a sleeping one.

Tonight wasn't too bad though, I think he really was knackered - he got up only five times and was asleep by 8.45, waking only once since so far. Yes, I'd pay privately, but no idea who or what I'm looking for. We're in London.

I think the bored tactic is perhaps most likely to work but the biggest problem is I don't have the time, because of work. Unless I can work during the day, but I have him to look after. It doesn't make financial sense to increase his nursery hours but I'm still a good 12 hrs short per week which need to be made up... I'm tying myself in knots just thinking about it all :-(

I really appreciate all the suggestions and the support. I need to try to think it through with a clear head, and would like to make it to bed before 1 tonight so will leave this for the moment. Any more suggestions and recommendations v gratefully appreciated! And he's just started crying again...

Right, so the vomiting is him having realised that the other smaller things he did didn't get him what he wanted, and now the vomiting does. So what does the vomiting get him?

It gets him you just you being with him. At 3 if he went to preschool he would go to the toilet by himself. So why do you go with him? Because he wants you to, because he wants to spend time with you, one on one.

I would just put him in the pull ups, no pyjamas so that if he does vomit you aren't having to strip him, just wash him down. I would also stop accompanying him to the toilet.

I can't tell if your dd is older or not. I would choose school holidays if she is and then you just need to stand firm. Bed time is bed time, if he wants to arse about in the bathroom, let him. But you don't go with him. No is a complete sentence. Don't talk, you don't need to engage with him, don't make eye contact, you don't need to tell him it is bedtime, he knows it is.

In the morning, massive amounts of praise for your daughter for doing the right thing by sleeping when asked. Nothing toward your son. Do not acknowledge the bad behaviour, only praise the good.

Sing Tom Petty Won't back down in your head, you have to stay really firm on this. You have to win, not him.

Because of the work situation you know you are trying to stop him doing this by whatever means, but quick isn't working. You need to ride it out. If that means more nursery time in the day to allow you to work, then take the financial hit now rather than your mental health. It is soul destroying. Bless you, it is so flipping hard parenting.

You need a child psychologist I think... Try Jo Douglas. She deals with behavioural issues ranging from sleep/eating/potty training etc. in under 8s.

She's really helped us. She sees people in her home and at 127 Harley st.

Good luck!

Have you tried letting him do his evening wee breaks on his own so it's more boring for him? Move a stairgate to the top of stairs if necessary & baby monitor on so you can still listen for messing around etc. I appreciate it might also depend on your DC - I could do this with dc1 but not dc2, she'd be up to no good in the blink of an eye!

Thank you... For just reading to the end of last night's epic!

What I really want to write is that he's a manipulative little sod, but I'll settle for saying that he has a strong survival instinct ;-)

He doesn't need us to take him to the loo at all, it is TOTALLY about attention, and when we refuse to take him he screams - loudly enough that not only has DD woken, but our neighbours have complained many times. When I arrived at nursery today he was being told off for having taken himself to the loo and wiped himself without having asked permission to go (they were doing headcount and realised he wasn't in the room, I walked through the door literally in time to hear the moment of panic and the rush to the bathroom to check). He has little respect for authority of any kind. Tonight we had a 2.5hr battle over Parmesan cheese, which, predictably, involved vomiting, spitting, hitting and other awful behaviour. He didn't get the extra cheese he wanted, he grabbed it and so I tipped his entire meal in the bin (he'd eaten breakfast, lunch, tea and two snacks at nursery, he won't starve).

it took both of us to change him for bed, then I said something which made him laugh in spite of himself (he does have a good sense of humour, luckily) and suddenly he was hugging me, telling me he loved me, etc. I ended up sitting in his room till he fell asleep so that he'd stop screaming (and stop annoying the neighbours), but that wasn't till half nine and I haven't done half of what I needed to do. Tellingly, he didn't need the loo at all when I was in his room. I do feel that although I won the battle, he won the war tonight.

DH is totally with me on this, we never criticise each other's parenting in from of the DC but we're both getting frazzled and pushed to the limits. Yes, DD's older, Y1 and really needing her sleep to cope with school demands. We've tried to take advantage of school holidays but there aren't enough of them and they don't last long enough!! But the Easter hols were in my mind when I started this appeal for ideas.

Stairgate came off a year ago, DS was coming over the top of it headfirst. He climbed over the banisters and fell down the stairs fairly recently, I don't want to give him anything else to climb over - otherwise, believe me, we'd put a stairgate across his doorway. We thought of putting an extra-tall dog gate across his door, but that wouldn't look so good to the prospective purchasers - we're trying to move - to a detached, soundproof house after the neighbour complaints...

Lilylou, thank you for the psychologist recommendation, I shall investigate.

I'll reread the thread over the next couple of days and try to formulate a plan or two based on the advice. Keep it coming please!