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There's an article in the times today about German style patenting.

19 replies

Jackieharris · 07/03/2015 21:00

I saw a copy in a cafe today and obviously there's the paywall so can't link and will have to describe it from memory!

It sounded great!

All about letting DCs have freedom from a young age.

Things I remember

-Young DCs walking to school alone in cities
-Pre teens being allowed to travel across the city on trams
-DCs being naked on beaches
-DCs being allowed to use knives
-kindergartens having sleepovers from age 3
-schools doing frequent week long trips in primary
-1-5 year olds in kindergarten focussing on social skills and play
-not learning to read until 6
-DCs being allowed out to play to build dens in woods
-12 yes being allowed mopeds
-good manners being expected eg no screens at the dinner table

Best of all German kids do better than British ones in international tests in their teens.

I'm sold!

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Hoppinggreen · 07/03/2015 21:06

DH is German and he moved here age 10. Even 30 years later he remembers that he. Thought the school he went to here was like something out of the dark ages!!!
We recently had a German guest who used to live in the UK but told us how he moved back to Germany to educate his children as he was horrified at the education they were getting in The UK.

Littlefiendsusan · 07/03/2015 21:08

Shock at 12 yr olds on mopeds!
Agree with all other points,especially the sleepovers. Genius.

FatCunt · 07/03/2015 21:09

I suppose a British school might not compare well if your kids go to a Gymnasium. I wonder how the British comp compares to your average Realschule, though.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

BuildYourOwnSnowman · 07/03/2015 21:10

I am married to a German and would comment as follows

Nurseries and childcare are actually quite difficult to come by - sil loves in Frankfurt and is having a real dilemma on this

German kids manners are no different to British kids

The only child friendly restaurants are Italian restaurants. Dh has not so fond memories of being kicked out of restaurants because they were a family. Things haven't improved much from my experience with my kids

Education wise - university can go on for ages if you choose. Dh came to the uk so he would graduate at 22.

Overall, of all the German kids I've met and my kids have played with over the years - not much difference!!

FatCunt · 07/03/2015 21:11

And am imagining the MN froth at parents whose kids have to go to a Hauptschule. Grin

BuildYourOwnSnowman · 07/03/2015 21:14

Bil ended up in a realschule and then went into an apprenticeship until he was twenty. Then left and went back to do a levels equivalent so he could o to university - he is now a successful engineer but wasted years if his life by getting set on the wrong path.

There are positives and negatives to all parenting styles but I think there is a generalisation here.

expatinscotland · 07/03/2015 21:17

12-year-old on mopeds . . . Hmm

expatinscotland · 07/03/2015 21:19

The rest sounds like a lot of generalising.

BuildYourOwnSnowman · 07/03/2015 21:22

Dh thinks mopeds are only from 15 and only with restricted speed (not sure what it is though)

Archfarchnad · 07/03/2015 21:34

My DC are now 16 and 12 and have grown up entirely in Germany. Yes, in many ways it's way healthier than the UK. Some of the neurotic things I read about on here are absolutely bonkers by comparison. On the other hand, the UK is in some respects socially more progressive than Germany, which can sometimes appear to be stuck back in the 1950s. And we live in the capital city, which is notoriously 'liberal' by comparison with the more conservative rural areas!

Your points in detail:

Young DCs walking to school alone in cities: depends what you mean by 'young', and across the city? In villages it's traditional that kids go alone from the time they start school at 6 or 7. In fact, older people particualry seem quite offended at the 'over-protected' kids these days whose parents take them to school. In a city like this, many kids will still be accompanied until they're 8 or 9 because the traffic dangerous. DD1 first went on a public bus by herself at 8. DD2 went on a bus with DD1 at 7. But they didn't really get used to travelling across our large city until 11 - which is more or less when they would in the UK.

-Pre teens being allowed to travel across the city on trams: see previous point. DD1 and 2 started going across the city at 11, including a very busy train intersection. By 12 or 13 they're pretty competent to get round by themselves. DD1 first flew by herself at 15 and is pretty good at that now at 16. There is a gradual progress towards teenagers taking more responsibility and getting more independent.

-DCs being naked on beaches: er yes, of course. Why not. Pre-schoolers have no problem with this. There are also a number of FKK beaches (nudist) and saunas are compulsory naked. The restriction on children in saunas is because of health concerns (children and hot temperatures) rather than nudity.

-DCs being allowed to use knives: yup, DD2 was bought a child's woodcarving knife for her 7th birthday (from schoolfriends, not us!). Never been a problem with it.

-kindergartens having sleepovers from age 3: absolutely, never been a problem. In fact, it might well have been 2 when they started. DD1 went on a 5-day trip with her nursery when she was 4, and I know of children who went earlier than that. Again, no problems.

-schools doing frequent week long trips in primary: tends to be 5 or 6 days rather than a whole week, but yes, from year 4 onwards every two years or so. In fact, they're regarded as a compulsory part of the curriculum - families who can't afford the cost can get it subsidised by social services/welfare payments, because it's regarded as important for social bonding with the group. In my DDs' school they went abroad in year 6, but not every school does that.

-1-5 year olds in kindergarten focussing on social skills and play: yes, in fact that's falling out of fashion a bit now, and nurseries are starting to at least introduce the alphabet to pre-schoolers. The idea is to create the social and motor skills which will prepare them for learning and a class setting. And you know what - both my DC learned to read two years after they would have done in the UK, yet they learned to read in two languages incredibly quickly. By the age of 8 or 9 they had absolutely caught up with the UK.

-not learning to read until 6: see above.

-DCs being allowed out to play to build dens in woods: yes, why not. But then, I grew up in the UK in the 1970s in the countryside and that's what we did too. So it seems to me that what the UK is doing these days is very much a step backwards - restricting children while purporting to be protecting them.

-12 yes being allowed mopeds: eh? Where did you get that from? It's 16 for a moped, 17 for a car, I believe.

-good manners being expected eg no screens at the dinner table I don't think Germany is the only place that doesn't tolerate children using screens at the table. There IS a particular intolerance to burping by children, however.

"Best of all German kids do better than British ones in international tests in their teens."

Where on earth did you get this from? The Germans are convinced that they do awfully at international tests. There was a notorious test in 1999 called PISA (run by OECD) when German did terribly, coming behind the Czech Republic, for instance. It was called the 'Pisa shock' and it led to a huge crisis in confidence in education. Many Germans believe places like Finland are much better. Please don't take Germany as a good model for education! They select kids into three different schools after 4 school years, and parental background plays a huge role - and there seems very little interest in making things fairer. The education system seems prehistoric by comparison with the UK, where there genuinely seems to be an effort to help kids to achieve as much as they can. Education in Germany is positively Darwinian - if you can't hack it (even for non-educational reasons), you're thrown out to the next level down.

NickyEds · 08/03/2015 12:37

I read this and found it very interesting too. The moped at 12 was a women talking about her childhood (being raised by her German mum) and being allowed to ride mopeds on holiday I think- not kids today being allowed as part of school!
I also found the difference in attitudes to sex ed interesting. The journalist is an American and commented on the frank way sex is taught in schools compared to the States( and resulting lower teenage pregnancy, abortion and STI rates).
I think that the general ethos of freedom and independence a really good one. In the article she says that German parents worry about their kids just as much as we do but they don't allow their fears undermine their children's independence, especially when so many of our fears are really quite unfounded.
I showed the piece to my dp and he wasn't surprised by the comments. He's a lecturer and researcher and his Uni occaisionally has 20-21 year olds for 6 months at a time do lab experience. He is constantly amazed by their ability to manage and thrive, particularly compared to their British couterparts. They'll offer to pick them up form the airport, get them settled into accomodation, show them around etc and are always met with "No thank you very much, I've looked at the bus timetables, maps etc and I'll be fine". This is compared to some of the British students who expect to be picked up from the Union because they "can't find his office" (Shock)!

noblegiraffe · 08/03/2015 12:53

The German education system has been condemned by the UN for perpetuating social inequality.

I'm not sure I'd see DC having access to sharp knives as a positive until I'd seen the relative rates of knife-related accidents or assaults.

The German language is incredibly easy to read, letter combinations are always pronounced the same way, unlike English. They can afford to start later than us.

Qwebec · 10/03/2015 04:58

ahem. Noble here (francophone land) English is known as the easiest language to master by far. I learned to read it on my own as a child.

TheKitchenWitch · 10/03/2015 06:01

It's like with anything, there are positives and negatives.
I live in Germany, have a German DH, 8yo ds and am expecting 2nd ds in April.
Yes, children have a lot more freedom and are encouraged to be more independent from a younger age. It reminds me very much of my own childhood in the UK.
The school system is, imo, an absolute fucking nightmare. The level of achievement expected at ds's Grundschule is astonishing, and in order to keep up there is an incredible amount of homework. Parents are very much expected to supplement school teaching at home.
I've found German teenagers to be very polite, which totally mystifies me as the majority of younger children are, again imo and ime, exceptionally rude, due to never being told off by their parents for things which I consider unacceptable. I've found they are also often very confident, which can be a good thing, but also leads to a complete lack of respect for others.
Helping in ds's school is a challenging experience, I'm often left gobsmacked. Ds, btw, goes to a small village school which in theory sounds ideal.

Despite those things, children are seen as very much an integrated part of society, welcome everywhere (especially restaurants, I've found), and the idea of a child-free wedding or 40th birthday party etc is practically unheard of.

differentnameforthis · 10/03/2015 08:33

good manners being expected eg no screens at the dinner table

I don't think that is exclusive to Germany. I know loots of families that don't allow screens at the table, in fact, I would go as far as to say that I don't know any families who do!

RosesAreMyFavourite · 10/03/2015 15:08

The UK education system is also geared towards learning through play until Yr 2, age 7 at least it was under the old National Curriculum before Gove stepped in with his Results Anxiety. What we do have over Germany is less reliance on homework, which as noble says, increases social inequality (only educated, interested parents can do it).

Germans are intellectual snobs, they have no class system, so they segregate by education - obviously the Times being the newspaper of the privileged loves this concept and probably see it as a convenient way to perpetuate and strengthen our own class system.

BuildYourOwnSnowman · 10/03/2015 18:01

Having a phd is seen as a status symbol - xref all the politicians gettibg caught out for plagiarism. Someone once tried to insult dh by referring to him as 'mr' throughout the meeting.

One thing I noticed with my in laws and have now noticed is true of almost all Germans I know (not scientifically valid I know) is that they take time off work for the smallest illness. So what I would call a sniffle necessitates three days off work. A sore throat a full week. I was interested enough to look up sick leave statistics and was not surprised to see Germany has much higher rates!

But as I said above - put my English kids in a room with their German cousins and there isn't much between them!

enqueue · 12/03/2015 07:54

"good manners being expected eg no screens at the dinner table

I don't think that is exclusive to Germany. I know loots of families that don't allow screens at the table, in fact, I would go as far as to say that I don't know any families who do!"

Screens at dinner table?! What is this?

RosesAreMyFavourite · 12/03/2015 19:25

I'm glad someone else has observed the same thing Snowman. German society is hard to unpick, lots of very strict rules but none spelled out. And yet they love instructions, the more detailed the better. Lots of things are 'sitte' (custom) but only Germans know what they are.

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