The Naughty Step - good or bad idea?

[NutellaLawson]

I have a 2.5 year old and a 10 month old. On the whole, the toddler is pretty well behaved and we have very few issues. He only really gets a big telling off for one behaviour: bashing his baby brother. He will throw hard toys at his head, stamp on his fingers, lie on him to pin him to the floor, shove him over, hit him and kick him.

We try telling him not to do it. We try distracting him. We try to encourage empathy for his baby brother but none of that works. Recently we resorted to the naughty step as follows:

a warning
reoffending leads to 2 minutes on the naughty step.
He sometimes just sits there, at other times he sneaks off it and thinks it's a game to be put back.
After 2 minutes I go to collect him. He may or may not apologise. No apology gets another 2 minutes etc.
If an apology is given he gets a cuddle and all is forgiven.

But that hasn't worked very well. His playing with the naughty step led me to put him into his baby brother's cot for 2 minutes. That DID upset him but at another time he was in there for about 20 minutes as he absolutely refused to apologise.

I'm concerned not only that it doesn't seem to work (DS2 gets another belting shortly after DS1 is back in the room) but also that I'm only teaching DS1 to do his worst and then issue an insincere apology. Part of me was a bit glad he wouldn't say sorry. It meant he knew how powerful that word is and he needed to 'feel' it.

I just don't think the NS works. In about twenty uses in total he has said sorry to and kissed his baby brother only twice. Most of the time it makes absolutely no difference. I also have to be careful how I word the warning. Saying something like: "if you kick your brother again..." which then makes the toddler want to kick him. And if he can't kick him he goes to kick something else.

I feel really bad for my toddler. He is obviously struggling with having a sibling and he is only two and a half, so impulse control is very limited. I don't want to set up the toddler against his baby brother though - where one is always getting told off and the other always gets the cuddles. That will only make things worse.

Any ideas? Am I going about this all wrong? I'm not convinced of the naughty step - both because I'm not seeing it work and because I think it's only teaching him to give insincere apologies and only to not get caught. Plus his behaviour is coming from somewhere.

Help.

Anyone?

Personally I'm not a fan, this article pretty much sums up my views
www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/positive-discipline/timeouts

Depends on your parenting style, but I don't like it.
You're right about trivialising 'sorry'.
Focus on positive behaviour, offer him other things to kick, completely ignore poor behaviour. ..
Look up Montessori approaches?

I do the naughty step. Dd is 2.3 years.

I think it only works if you start it just before 2. If you start it at say 3, then they do tend to think its a new game.

It works for us, i tell dd once, if she continues doing something i have asked her not to then i threaten the naughty step and she does as shes told straightaway.

Shes goes on the naughty step about once a fortnight.

I am a fan for lots of reasons. Partly because it removes the child from the potentially dangerous situation and makes clear their behaviour is not okay but also because it gives you time to calm down and breathe. In these circumstances I would also be looking to the root of the problem, new baby usurping his seat in the house.

That link what a pp linked to is absolute bollocks.

Never read such shit in all my life!

We use it, it works, he responds well (3.5). I have smacked him in the past, I'm ashamed to admit, and this gives me a cool down period.

I'm glad it works well for some. Once a fortnight sounds marvellous. Sadly for us it can be 10x a day or more, which is why I suspect its not the right tool here or I'm asking too much self control over very powerful emotions.

I read the link and we have tried the positive approaches but frankly they are no use whatsoever. We already do all of the acknowledgement of his feelings and telling him what he should have done but he'll kick his brother immediately after or even during this exchange. Not to mention that I now also have a howling baby with a growing bump on his head who needs holding, too.

We resorted to naughty step only after several months of his aggression, after talking did nothing. He sometimes goes out of his way to shove, squash or sit on his baby brother.

Ds1 is a very affection-hungry boy. He wants cuddles throughout the day, likes being carried, is often heard to say 'I wanna cuddle' for the smallest things. I almost never refuse a cuddle (only if I really can't like I'm holding something hot or am feeding the baby).

I know he's very jealous. If ds2 is napping then ds1 is fine. But if I bring him into the room ds1 will start bashing toys in anger. I do worry about what kind of relationship they're going to have if Ds1 carries on like this.

Maybe once his baby brother is walking and won't require me to carry (or 'cuddle' as it must look to ds1) him so much. I also think poor toddler gets told off and baby never does (because he's a baby).

I try to model what ds1 should do if his brother starts grabbing his toys and I have seen him try but he still more often than not resorts to violence. And sometimes goes our off way to inflict it.

I was the bullied younger sibling in my family and hated that my mother never intervened. I felt defenseless so I want to avoid that.

It may seems the naughty step isn't working in this area.

I have a ds aged 2.4, who bashes and sometimes bites his older sister - who never retaliates though sometimes I wish she would.
I don't use the step, because shutting him out of the room is enough to make him howl and then say sorry. (I'm not bragging, it's just like that.)
He does do it again- it's not a magic cure by ny means, but some kind of message gets through,I believe.
Could you find something that does affect him? - if not the step then something else - taking away a favoured toy maybe?
Also if it's a physical attack on the baby, do not give a warning. Just go instantly to the consequence and be very stern. general naughtiness is different, but I have zero tolerance for physical harm.
And in the meantime, go mad crazy with the praise when he does things you like, big or little.

Hmmm. tricky. I remember that feeling of 'we must do something' when Dd1 was seemingly naughty, around the age of 2. I now regret ever doing the naughty step. It just made her feel shunned and shamed. Ir did not alter her behaviour. When she hit (me, not younger sibling) I took her hand and said we use hands to be gentle with other people, and modeled gently. It's more likely a phase that needs to be ridden out whilst you minimise the opportunities for DC1 to hurt DC2. Discipline is about teaching and it's a drip, drip effect, where immediate results are rarely seen. Keep letting DS1 know 'we don't hurt people', praise and reward the behaviour you like. Don't give him attention for his bad behaviour. I'd recommend How to talk so your kids listen and listen so your kids talk, going forward. Or look into Unconditional Parenting if your instincts are against naughty step punishments.

The other thing I do is to tell him: mum doesn't bite you, dad doesnt bite you, dd doesn't bite you, so you don't bite dd.
It's like a mantra, I say it right down face to face with him. I just about feel it gets through to him on some level, although like I say it doesn't mean he won't do it again.

I've a couple of techniques I use with my 3 year old when she pushes my 1 year old over.

I send her out the room and tell her to come back when she's ready to be kind to him. She will normally return much quicker than if I timed her on the step for 3 minutes or whatever and it leaves the punishment in her hands.

We've had conversations about how she is teaching him it is ok to push and how he will keeping growing bigger and bigger and will push her back if she teaches him that is ok.

The most impactful thing so far appears to have been telling her he isn't her friend anymore because he doesn't want to be pushed. She doesn't like that at all and tries hard to make friends again but she is quite obsessed with who her friends are etc at the moment.

Wow, CountingthePennies, I guess you don't agree with that article, huh.

For me though, it also fairly well summarises why I don't use timeout with my DS who is 2.6yrs.

I also found the Toddler Calm book to be very helpful, but I think that some might find it a bit "out there" and hippyish. If it seems like it might be helpful though, there are also classes you can go to as well.

I have to say I'm not sure I like the article either. It assumes the step is being used to punish a 'meltdown'. I am sure the author means tantrum which I agree shouldn't be punished with the step.

The OP is referring to her DS casually hitting his brother for picking up a toy or standing in the way of the TV etc. That is totally different to a child having a genuine tantrum where they induce fear in themselves due to the loss of control.

These articles never explain how to use a positive approach when you've got a smaller child now screaming it's head off having been hurt by it's sibling.

The book "Toddler Taming" explains what a step is and isn't meant to do. It's only a chance for the situation to be defused and for all involved to calm down. Trying to force a child to stay once calmer just creates a battle of wills and you don't want to go there - it doesn't work as a "punishment".

Ds was never intentionally naughty at that age but did get upset easily and lash out, so suggesting he sit on a calming-down mat meant he'd get distracted and soon beable to talk about the problem, so it worked quite well. Once he learnt to be deliberately naughty, it didn't work as he wouldn't cooperate.

Dd is a very naughty toddler and telling hershe will have to go to the doormat if she does X usually results in her running off to the mat, jumping up and down in glee, then running back and with a bit of luck will have forgotten about X. So again it works, but making her go to it after hitting her big brother is pointless - lots of attention for hurt siblings and back to the perpetrator seems to be the only option (and positive attention for the hitter at another time).

I'd think, in OPs situation she could just exclude him from the room until he can cone back and play kindly. It's a more logical consequence. Keep repeating. I don't agree with making a child saying sorry just to appease adults when they're not old enough to understand.

I agree couldhavebeenrachel. That's what I've been doing with DD. I don't like the timing aspect of the step.

When I used the step DD would sometimes instantly recognise she was in the wrong so leaving her howling on a step for a few minutes was pointless.

The 'come back when you are ready to be kind to DS' works well for us.

That said I wouldn't punish a tantrum. DD is 3.3 now so is coming out of the 'smack down tantrum' phase of the 2's so it is usually quite easy to read the reasons for the odd tantrum she does have.

I just don't like the assumption that people are using the step for tantrums. All my friends who do use the step use it for specific behaviours only.

DD knows exclusion is for pushing her brother over or spitting at the table.

The ahaparenting site does actually have an article on when a child hits. In this case it's if they hit you- but I think it give some ideas. The site can seem a bit aspirational and fluffy at first view I suppose.

The consequence of hitting his baby brother would be "No! We don't hit!" and then you attending completely to the baby- lift him up and away, comfort and cuddle him, make a fuss of checking his "sore" etc etc. So hurting the baby results in DS1 being ignored and DS2 being fussed over and comforted. It's not a punishment, it's a natural consequence. But clearly not an optimal outcome for DS1.

Once baby is calm then I guess the rest of what is suggested follows. It's not about being softly softly- your DS needs to know some behaviours are not acceptable, even if there is some insecurity behind them. But at the same time he needs to know he is loved even when he's angry.

Hope link works, I'm a bit challenged in this area...

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/positive-discipline/Child-Hits-parent

We did use all of these softer techniques in the beginning (and still do). Talking about not hitting each other. 'We don't hit you' etc. We stress that we're a family and we love each other. We talk about mummy is kind to daddy. Daddy is kind to mummy and DS1 is kind to mummy and DS1 IS kind to his brother, that sort of thing.

We also are keen not to say: "you don't hit you brother" and instead say "you don't hit other people" because we don't want to send the message that his brother is special (or more special than him), instead it's a blanket 'no hitting anyone' rule.

We have also done the 'attention on the injured party' but that actually seemed to make things worse. DS1 needs a lot of reassurance and cuddles and seeing his brother get cuddled only fuels the resentment even more and it looks to him as though he (toddler) is always getting told off and baby is always getting cuddles. Maybe if the toddler were older he would be able to connect his behaviour leading to more attention to his rival he'd be able to stop it but I just don't think he has made the connection that walloping his brother means we cuddle his brother (or maybe the thump is worth it).

We NEVER punish a tantrum. If toddler tantrums we first try to find out what's up. Sometimes it IS fixable (such as wanting his sausage cutted up) and other times it isn't or we can't figure out what he wants amid the howling. In the latter case we just leave him to it, offering the odd reassuring word about 'maybe have your dinner later, when you feel a bit better' and let him ride it out and mostly ignoring him. He's not a major tantrummer though.

Nothing in the ahaparenting site seems that helpful. They are all things we have already tried in one form or another, the NS being our last resort.

It seems there is no simple solution. We're taking a break from the NS for a bit and may go back to it later.

Maybe focus on prevention of the animosity?

I read a thread a while ago where a mum said she would on occasion ignore dc2 in favour of dc1 to avoid resentment. E.G dc1 wants a sandwich and dc2 is safe but a bit grumbly/crying but not red face, mum says 'come on let's make a sandwich, silly baby is shouting again' don't know if that would work.

Reward ideas also sound good, maybe associate something with baby, e.g. you get to pick a toy because you are a big brother. Maybe get him a special big brother t-shirt and explain how important he is and that whenever he is a good big brother he will get a star on the chart, resulting in a treat.

I really don't know, just thinking outloud.