Help! (long)

[mandbaby]

I hope someone can offer some advice (or even just some support!)

I have 3 children (DS1 age 5, DS2 age 3.5 and a DD aged 4 months). My husband is a teacher and works so hard and is under so much pressure to keep his job (anyone who's a teacher or lives with one may understand me here). Although it's currently half-term, the only thing we've done as a family this week is a walk around our local lake with a picnic. The remainder of the time, DH is busy marking and planning just to keep his head above water at work. My boys get bored and what I can do with them is limited because of our 4 month old. She spends nearly all day in my arms!

Our parenting views are very different. He thinks children should be ruled with an iron fist and that, whilst being loved, they should also be somewhat fearful of their parents (especially their father) and do exactly as they're "told". Somewhat Victorian I suppose. He doesn't think the odd smack on the bum does them any harm, in fact he probably thinks it's essential occasionally. My parenting views are evolving: About 8 months ago (whilst heavily pregnant) I smacked my then 4yo for running off from me in the park. I was horrified that I "lost it" so bad and since then have read several books on calmer parenting: only noticing the positives, how to speak to them to get them to do things, how to deal with tantrums, etc. However, due to the fact that there are three under-fives in our house, putting positive-parenting methods into action isn't always easy. I know the kind of parent I WANT to be, but being that parent is a daily (hourly!) effort.

If I ever shout at them, DH will smugly say something like "your books are working then?!"

But sometimes it feels like I have a bigger battle because I have no support with it. If MY methods don't work and the boys are still acting up, he will get angry with them as he it's what he believes they need.

But this isn't the biggest problem. DH is so tired, stressed and exhausted that it's making him take no further nonsense to add to his stress and fatigue. This morning I "overslept" and didn't hear the boys wake up (I'm currently sleeping in the baby's room). They went into their Dad who doesn't "do" mornings and when he (eventually) got up to make their breakfasts, etc, he lost it BIG TIME: yelling at our 3yo when he complained about his milk being too hot then too cold, and yelling in the face of our 5yo when he put his "adult" head on and started to lecture his Dad. I walked in the room and asked that he calm down and of course then I got yelled at because he thinks I'm having a go. (I suppose to some extent I was. I reminded him of their ages, which of course he's well aware of.) I suppose some of his anger is at himself for losing it so badly with two tiny human beings who are his world.

Now I'm walking on eggshells not to further add to the stress.

I know he's tired, stressed and worried for his job, but I want him to see that this, whether he agrees or not, is completely normal. Our boys are normal, excited, often challenging, clever boys. But when they don't do EXACTLY as and when he asks, he takes it personally and gets angry and thinks they need yelling at to get them to "obey". When he's in the classroom, his students do as he asks and if they don't, he yells. He told me yesterday that he isn't even "this stressed at work" - that he finds being with the boys at home harder than being at work, despite all the pressures he faces to get results and keep his job.

Every day I have blogs and quotes emailed to me from positive parenting websites that remind me of the kind of parent I want to be. I've forwarded the odd one to him in the past but he admits he doesn't read them as he doesn't have the time (and probably cos he thinks they're mumbo jumbo).

What can I do to make him see that there IS another, better way to parent? I can't talk to him today - he's currently ignoring me. We otherwise have an excellent relationship (work, stress, fatigue and children aside). We only ever "argue" occasionally and it's nearly always in the school holidays when the stresses of "family life" tip him over the edge. He's convinced that the boys are only ever "difficult" for him. He doesn't believe that I have all of this 24-7 and on only 3-4 hours sleep a night (currently going through teething etc with our 4 month old). He doesn't do anything at all in terms of care for the baby as she's BF and babies terrify him (even our third one!). No nappy changing, consoling when crying and I'm busy, etc.

On top of this, I'm currently going through a health scare that he knows nothing about (I'm going for tests next week).

I do wonder if he's depressed and some sort of counselling may help, but he'd NEVER agree to it.

Today, right now, it feels like we're at breaking point. Tomorrow, everything will be fine again and none of this will be an issue. But in a few months, possibly at the start of the Summer hols, the same thing will happen all over again.

Help!

I'm a teacher/pastoral manager and a mum. Some things you mention in defence of your husband have me concerned. I'm not sure your dh is dealing with things - work or home- in the best way.
Why is he marking so desperately to keep his job? Is he under competency? My subject is one of the "marking heavy" ones, my school a known "tough" one in terms of academic standards and inner city nature. Even given that, his stress levels sound unusual. Yes, it's tough, but no one I know marks solidly for a whole week unless - to be brutal - they've let themselves slip behind during term time. When does he mark during term time? Saving it all for half term sounds hellish and not useful for learning either!
Also the slightly Victorian values you mention are out of step with most schools nowadays (even very strict ones like mine - it's all about firmness without fear, punishments without shouting - eg cleaning litter if caught dropping it etc'). These might also be causing him stress as they really don't work with modern kids. Firmness yes: but not fear/shouting.

Essentially what I guess I'm saying is, OP, that your DH needs to sort out his issues ... you can't do that for him.
It sounds like you're mopping up after someone who has got themselves into a pickle and is now angry and defensive.

FWIW I'm with you on parenting (and indeed at work) - firm, kind and sensible. I've worked in "rough" areas all my life and never been a 'weak' presence - warmth is not incompatible with discipline at all!

... sorry got cut off.

Regardless of work stress your dh is being pretty nasty to your kids.
That needs to STOP.
No excuses.
If I were to have this behaviour disclosed to me at work (shouting up in a 3 year old's face) I would have to report it to the school child protection officer.
That's how bad it is. Your husband will know this.

...and why haven't you told him about the health scare op?

The more I reflect, the more this worries me.

Your dh has issues and it just sounds like he projects them onto everyone else.

That sounds really hard. Where does your DH does his planning work when he is at home? Does he have an office/study where he can lock himself away for a pre-agreed time?

DH have been through something similar...DH was ridiculously strict and we had x3 under 5. Now he is much more relaxed (and what I would call normal) in his approach! Like your DH he works long hours so the main bulk of the parenting was (and still is) left to me.

I would, and fact still do, read books and drip feed the information, backed up with facts. I've also had some very strongly worded conversations with him about stuff he has done, he was not abusive, just far to strict and unrealistic. I have intervened before which was hard because I wanted to make sure that I did it in such a way that he was not undermined in front of the DC's (I have on a couple of occasions put myself in-between him and the DC in question and calmly send him away)...having somewhere for him to remove himself to was useful. In the past he has gone away to cool down and in fairness to him, when I have gone and found him to discuss what had happened he listened and was open to changing.

In terms of the help that I need with the DCs I have discovered that he needs specifics, a list is good, direct requests are good...hints and nagging are not so good. We have talked about what support he needs with work and what I need during the week when I am here 12-16 hours on my own. At weekends its all hands on for both of us.

I know it sounds like I did a lot of the leg work here but DH was open to change.

The other thing that imo doesn't sound healthy is the fact that he mocked you when you shouted...did you call him on it? I guess the bottom line is that I have a standard if you will, with regard how everyone in this house will be treated. I will not tolerate anyone who goes against this, especially when it comes to the DCs because they cannot stand up for themselves.

No, he's not under competency but has been warned that he may face it if his departments' results don't meet the FFT-A targets. He's Head of the Department and has one staff member on competency, one off on long-term sickness (so he's doing most of his more important work as the Supply can't do it), and another member of staff who's next to useless but whose face fits. He's marking their work as well as his own to make sure that what they're saying and doing is correct. I do see a lot of my husband's faults but his work ethic isn't one of them: He never has time off ill and his results are always amongst the best in school and have been since I've known him. However, his current Year 11s are useless and are performing below their targets but he couldn't do any more to rectify this if he tried! He doesn't work this hard at every holiday, I suppose, but does do work every night when the kids are in bed during term-time so it's not like he's let it build up. A lot of the staff (at least the more senior staff) at his school are under this pressure. The new(ish) Head iis throwing his weight around and telling them to do up their game, or leave.

But, yes, I agree that he can't let that affect his home relationships. And what I really need to know is how I can best support him. I'm doing all I can to alleviate the pressure, but I'm also tired, busy and stressed.

I'm sure a lot of families must go through this sort of thing at some point, don't they? I just wish he knew how "normal" our homelife is: kids being loud/boisterous/bored/energetic/insert any other age related trait here and that parenting is hard. Really hard. But he thinks it should be a breeze because that's how he perceives other families.

I think he's either completely exhausted (what parent isn't?) and is on the verge of a breakdown or stress related heart-attack, or he's starting with depression. I've also suggested he gets a blood test in case there is something else we're missing.

I just don't think he ever envisaged parenthood being so physically, mentally and emotionally tiring. Like I said, his work is stressful but he claims that homelife is even more so. I've no doubts he loves us all and would be utterly shocked if he wanted a divorce - our relationship is the same as it always was. I just wish I knew how to make him see that our boys and baby daughter are all completely normal, but you can't change anyone's behaviour but your own. If I talk to him about it (about trying gentler, happier parenting) he just either says I'm wrong or tells me that society as a whole has gotten worse since people stopped smacking/yelling at their kids, and that young people were more respectful decades/centuries ago.

Whatever I say, he thinks I'm preaching. And then, of course, if I ever yell at the kids and they then do as they're told, he thinks I've just proven myself wrong.

He's marking their work!?!

He should not be doing that!! It won't help learning and is not sustainable. Who had that idea? Their senior management must be screwed if that's their solution.

This is going to sound harsh and other teachers might flame me but he needs to carefully record their failings and hold them to account. They are grown ups doing a job.
He's managing them.
I started out my current job with a department just like that. I got caught marking FOR them by a good senior manager who stopped me. Thank goodness. So I have been there...

... If he feels bad, remind him the other teachers are probably in the pub because he's doing their work for them. Imagine if they were teaching your kids.
Keeping firm records and holding team members to account for their job (his job is to run the department not teach/mark for everyone) is what he's contracted to do. Grades won't rise if he doesn't get them managing their own workload ... He can't teach every kid, that's why there's a team!

Do you have any mutual friends with children a similar age? Sounds like my dh has similar views to yours but I think spending time with other children helped him get our son's behaviour into perspective as most small boys are lively and get up to mischief! However while my dh is more strict than me he would never yell at our sons or me (FWIW he also has a stressful job doing a lot of hours) it does sound like he needs to find help to manage his temper - yelling in someone's face is bullying behaviour and completely different to being strict.
Is there any way you can find time for him to spend one-on-one with each boy? Even just half an hour may help him connect more and then he is likely to find them better behaved and that he is less inclined to yell. It sounds so sad that he finds work less stressful than them. since we had our second baby dh husband spends much more time with ds1 and this has really helped them bond. Maybe you could pick a time when the little ones tend to be at their best?
It's really tough when you have different views on parenting but you can find a way through BUT only if you're both willing to genuinely listen and accept influence from each other. i back up everything I suggest with scientific studies (DR Laura Markham is a favourite though I'm sure you've already come across her) men seem to respond well to science!
I did one term of a PGCE and really admire teachers, and as a mum I admire them as well! I really hope things get better for you all.

Exquisite, I tell him this all the time! That his Senior Management Team can't expect him to do their work, work that they are being paid to do as educated, professional adults, but he says if he did they wouldn't care. He logs and reports all their failings but DHs line manager does nothing to support him. And yes, the one member of his department who is inadequate but whose face fits has been bragging about his various outings during this half-term on Facebook, even though he's missed deadlines and not completed some work.

Squizita not exquisite!

What will happen to this person in light of them missing deadlines?
When I had a team member like that I was scrupulous with deadlines. Rough to start with, but the only way.
When I was asked why things were incomplete I did have to show person x had not done them, though they knew the deadline (I could prove this) and I'd given support/training. After this I had met them to discuss and they were blasé about it. I had done my part and tge team member got a rude awakening but one they needed - for their career, the kids and the school. I'm always 100% clear on who does what when in my team. Stops some doing work for others ... who might eventually take advantage.

DH reckons very little will happen to the staff member who's missed a deadline this week. Like you, DH has backed it up with clear expectations, support, etc, but this particular member of staff seems to have the gift of the gab and gets away with so much, so often.

Littlebagoflaughter - no we don't really have close friends with children. His closest friends are yet to settle down or don't have children. He sees our neighbour's children and thinks they're angelic (as, ironically, he never hears their parents shouting so therefore just assumes they're obedient little things that don't need to be shouted at. It probably hasn't occurred to him that they have other ways of making their children cooperate.)

Don't get me wrong, when I implement things I've learned from Dr Laura Markham and others, I can see the slow drip-drip effect it's having on him. He has got slightly better over the last 6 or so months.

This morning mainly came about because DH says he doesn't sleep well and finds it hard to get up in a morning. Who doesn't?! I would love nothing more than an or two more in bed every day. I try and give him a lie-in when I can by getting up with the boys and letting DH slowly wake up in his own time, but this morning I didn't even hear anyone (the boys get up when their gro clocks turn orange at 7am) and it was 7.50 before I heard them all going downstairs so he'd managed to avoid getting out of bed for 50 minutes which is 50 minutes more than I ever do - I just get straight up as I know that their demands for breakfast are relentless and they won't suddenly stop whining just because I want another hour in bed. He just doesn't seem to get this. When I've suggested to him that he needs to be more "willing" in a morning he says he can't. Their whining (all normal and age-appropriate) tipped him over the edge when still very tired.

I really think some proper counselling would be so beneficial - to make him realise that our actions are shaping our children. Sometimes he's great, then other times he acts like he's the only tired and stressed parent out there, and that our children are the only defiant children out there.

With regard to my health issue, it's somewhat embarrassing. I've told him I'm going for tests but he doesn't know what for.

How do you think he would react if you told him about your health issue?

You must be knackered if he is snoring at night and you have a 4 month old, it sounds like you are trying to shoulder it all and look after 3Dc's (and him).

Are you afraid that if you tackle stuff head on with him that it will be too much and tip him over the edge (where ever that may be)? because it sounds like you are taking a lot of unhelpful behavior from him and making excuses for him because he is having a hard time...

Yes, I am shattered. (Although his snoring doesn't affect me as I've been sleeping in the baby's room since she was born). I'm shattered because she's teething and waking up 5-6 times a night.

And yes, I think you're right. I am frightened to tackle it head on. In the heat of the moment (or rather an hour or two later) I think of all the things I want to say to him. But when things are back to being normal, i.e. he's not angry and shouty, I don't want to bring stuff up for fear of rocking the boat. It's easier to just carry on and say nothing. Cowardly, I know.

On one occasion I wrote it all down when I was calm and set up a time to talk (spur of the moment 'now' was never ever a good time, there was always one reason or another why he couldn't talk), we sat down with a bottle of wine (rightly or wrongly) and discussed things. Once the boat had been well and truly rocked things began to change and improve, you might get to a point where carrying on is no longer the easier choice.

I'm sorry, I haven't had time to read all of this properly, but a few things:

I am a teacher. I am Head of dept. I went back to work whilst still breastfeeding, baby was 7.5 months. He still woke 2-3 times every night. I managed to do my job and be a calm and loving parent.

Your relationship does not sound too. For a start, he is not supporting you in bringing up your children, and secondly, you're not able to draw on his support in the face of your own health scare!

I think you have bigger problems than

just different parenting styles.

Firstly, he must stop using 'having a job' as an excuse for being a stressy, unhelpful parent.

I can really relate to how he must be feeling - I also find parenting hellishly and shockingly more exhausting and stressful and difficult than I thought I would have. It's a real shock - it's horrible. Of course there are good bits and it's getting easier but I just feel like I'd gone up expecting to warm my hands on a lovely fire and found myself naked, trussed up and spitroasting over it and no way to get out of it.

The control and insistence that "last generation's kids were more respectful" thing is probably related. I'm sure you or anyone could show him plenty of evidence to the contrary about that but it's by the by - he's shown you he's unable or unwilling to accept it. He NEEDS to get help. I think you actually need to make it an ultimatum, actually, before your marriage falls apart under the strain of everything. As ch1134 says, you should be able to rely on him when you have a health scare. It's a problem.

The other thing is that even if the parenting style of the past did create kids with more respect for authority (undoubtedly, BTW, it did, but it's the other things it created we aren't keen on, and violence etc between and from children and young people and overall has not increased, in fact it's reduced.) - even if it works, which I'm prepared to argue for a moment that it does in a narrow way, it's not acceptable today. You can't hit your children with a belt or a cane or a shoe, it's shocking and illegal. You can't send them to bed without dinner or stick them in the garden to scream, it's cruel neglect. Other children around them will be acting in the manner of today's children, not 1915 or 1950s children, and they will pick up those influences, not only yours. So they would be stuck in a weird quandry where they are expected to act one way in one setting and a totally different way in another. Children are different now, parenting is different and he needs to accept that that's the way it is. The old ways aren't acceptable. He can't use the ultimate threat of force and fear - in the past, if your child didn't respond to a smack you could and would smack harder, and they knew that and would respond accordingly. Now even if you choose to use smacking occasionally as discipline, which is legal, you can't just do it harder, because we recognise that is not okay. So he needs to find different ways around, because when you are using force and pain to dominate as a primary or significant method of being in control, you're always going to have to keep going to in effect prove your higher strength.

I'm sure this is what he's doing - panicking, feeling he's drowning and losing control, trying to claw and gain back control by force, and probably losing it more in the meantime, but it isn't sustainable or fair in the long term. He needs some kind of intervention to allow him to feel in control without needing to resort to such extreme measures.

I wonder though - do you think perhaps he is so angry at your approach because it is SO different to his? What if you got him to look at something which is still behaviourist in approach but does not rely on shouting and hitting, such as 123 Magic? It's not quite positive parenting/Laura Markham stuff, basically "how to use time out", it's not my chosen method, and I would suspect not yours, but it might enable him to feel more in control, because I wonder if he's seeing your gentle approach as being totally terrifying and this idea of the "hippy parenting movement" stereotype? But he isn't able to actually communicate this to you effectively because of his own exhaustion and stress. But sometimes the fear and panic comes to the surface and it's like he goes "Right! SOMEBODY is going to have to take control here!" and blunders in.

Perhaps, even, you could agree to trial this 123 method with him for a few weeks. It does still have problems relating to the gentle parenting method (I find it a bit emotion-shutting-down, for example, and it's definitely treat-the-symptom-not-the-cause) but it's not awful, there is a lot of positive stuff in there, and it won't harm the DC to have a more regimented approach for a little while, because you can bring the emotional/reasoning/touchy feely stuff back once things are more stable and you're not fighting about it any more. And the combination of showing that you're willing to meet him halfway for a short period of time, and setting up a fairly structured method, and the warmer weather (hopefully) arriving soon and the baby getting a bit older might just all come together to calm things down enough to be able to actually TALK, work out a way forward, get him to seek help if he still needs to, just sort of clear some space a bit, if that makes any sense.

I mean, yes, he's being out of order. And I am actually totally on the same page as you re gentle discipline stuff. But I have had parenting disagreements with my DH (not as severe) and my XP (somewhere near as severe, possibly worse, he was an arse) and with XP, we were at such loggerheads that there was no way we were ever getting closer together. He kept trying to force his way on me which made me more determined to do things my way and almost protective, because I found his way close to abusive, and I kept trying to convince him with, in hindsight, really far-out stuff compared to where he was, which just made him annoyed and frustrated and totally ignore me. We didn't communicate well anyway, but I've found with my DH, although we are closer together to begin with, it's the times that I've taken steps towards trying things he says or taking on board his suggestions that he's then become more open to mine. I just wonder if perhaps you are at such polar opposites it's making you both go "Jesus CHRIST are you MAD?! Why on earth would I do THAT??" and veer back off in your own directions in order to strengthen your respective cases. And end up fighting, both convinced you're right and the other is totally wrong.

(Sorry I think mine was even longer :))

Oh I've just noticed who it is - hi :) Come back and join us on the support thread if you like? We're on number 3 now. No pressure if you don't want to though!

Hi Bertie! Thanks for your thorough reply. I occasionally dip in and read the posts on the trenches thread but finding the time to reply is, as you can imagine, hard. But I still often rely on your and the other ladies` support. xxx

Yes totally understand! :) BTW my response was a bit stream of consciousness - I genuinely didn't notice your name until I read back through, so was based only on the info in your OP. Just ideas to throw around. I hope you find some way through it soon, in any case. (How is your baby 4 months old already? I remember you waiting for her to arrive :))